| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Is there a way to prevent the decline in translation rates? Thread poster: Erwin S. Fernandez
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Denis Fesik wrote:
any new customer will have to take my word on whatever I've put on my CV, which is a major competitive disadvantage, especially when entering the 'First World' markets where you normally need specialist qualifications to do any work and provide any services
Absolutely not. I'd say it is very unusual for either an agency or a direct client to check the claims in a freelance translator's CV or require any specialist qualifications.
The proof of the pudding is normally in the eating, not the list of ingredients...
| | | | Baran Keki 
Türkiye
Local time: 18:52
Member
English to Turkish
| qualifications... | Jun 11, 2021 |
Denis Fesik wrote:
As I wrote a couple of posts back, I'm not in the 'undercutting' business; this notion that you can get decent Russian translations for peanuts (spoiler: no, you can't, unless you get really lucky to find someone who loves peanuts and is willing to do their best for them) has taken shape through no fault of mine, and many of us here are underpaid for that very reason. In my case, going international will be problematic (I have no formal papers to show because my academic pursuits went haywire in the early noughties, so any new customer will have to take my word on whatever I've put on my CV, which is a major competitive disadvantage, especially when entering the 'First World' markets where you normally need specialist qualifications to do any work and provide any services), and the rates I charge to our local companies are quite high and will become higher, despite there being a lot of pressure
You don't have to go to a medical school for 6 years to translate medical reports or clinical trials. You get the terminology and style right by doing online research and once you've done enough number of projects in a particular field over the years you're as good as an expert (of course I'm not talking about hardcore academic stuff on oncology, dentistry and the like). It's all down to experience.
Personally I've never understood those who quit their jobs in medicine or engineering to become translators. I suspect the majority of those claiming to be 'doctors' have never actually worked in a hospital. They finish or quit medical school, with zero work experience, and become translators.
A word of advice: Don't upload your CV, especially in word format, to your online profiles. There are c***s who steal translators' CVs and apply to agencies using those CVs (with fake names) and once they get jobs in your language pair (on the strength of your 'qualifications', no less!) they outsource those jobs to other translators (in your case, to Russian translators) for half price and they make a nice little profit, being 'polyglots'.
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Baran Keki wrote:
You don't have to go to a medical school for 6 years to translate medical reports or clinical trials. You get the terminology and style right by doing online research and once you've done enough number of projects in a particular field over the years you're as good as an expert (of course I'm not talking about hardcore academic stuff on oncology, dentistry and the like)
I remember being asked to do a medical project and spending a full hour trying to figure out how cells of a particular type differentiate into something and how this can be translated it into Russian: the words of that sentence, when translated in all possible ways, just did not exist together anywhere on the Runet. Another translator agreed to take over my piece, and my intuition tells me that they might not have bothered about the meaning, just translating the words. I certainly could use better medical translation skill, but it'll take years to build. You can always find job ads for medical translators, and even though the salary figures announced there are quite high, the same ads keep showing up again and again for years, suggesting that strong professionals in this field are exceptionally hard to find. Anyway, my translation career has progressed through other subject-matter areas (too many for my liking, I don't enjoy being a jack-of-all-trades). And yes, I removed my CV from proz.com as you advised, although I don't think anyone would use mine for any schemes you mentioned, it is quite eventful but lacks some of the assets traditionally valued by employers
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 10:52
Greek to English
+ ...
| The smart ones are jumping ship... | Jun 14, 2021 |
Denis Fesik wrote:
And yes, the more adventurous readers of this thread who have their own loyal customer base are welcome to relocate to any major city in Russia – as a means of dealing with the dwindling rates.
Relocations will happen for sure (mostly from cities to low-cost villages etc), for those who wish to remain in this field. The smarter ones are quickly exiting the industry as we speak, using it only as transitional income and a potential part-time thing for winter evenings. You'll be fine for a while. But since the income is not enough in the West anymore to justify the trouble, veteran translators are leaving at a pace faster than the machine can replace them.
Pretty soon the "full time translator" (I mean the one who fully depends on income from translations) in the West, will become a tourist attraction.
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Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 10:52
Greek to English
+ ...
| It's not a "career" - never forget that | Jun 14, 2021 |
Denis Fesik wrote:
Anyway, my translation career has progressed
A career is something that has promotions and perks, bonuses, profit-sharing, etc.
"Translator" is not a career, it's a job.
And it's not a "business" either. Having a business means you build equity, and you can sell the business at some point or capitalize on it or expand it and have other people working for you.
Translators are remote workers without employment benefits and confuse "being busy" with "having a business". Not the same of course, by far. They're not career people and they're not business owners.
It's just a job.
| | | | | @Eleftherios | Jun 14, 2021 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
But since the income is not enough in the West anymore to justify the trouble, veteran translators are leaving at a pace faster than the machine can replace them.
Pretty soon the "full time translator" (I mean the one who fully depends on income from translations) in the West, will become a tourist attraction.
Do you have any evidence of this?
Intuitively one might think this would be the case, but then intuitively one would also assume that the market is expanding rapidly...
I am in the West and I am doing just fine with my business, in my career, even by your definitions.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:52
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
......The smarter ones are quickly exiting the industry as we speak.....
So why are you still here?
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 18:52
Member
English to Turkish
Supposing you did. What would you do if you're a 45 or 50 year old person who's spent most of his/her adult life translating? I don't think you'd get back to practicing medicine or engineering any time soon (not to mention at that age) if you left that cushy job some 25 years ago for the 'wonderful world' of translation.
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| Ongoing changes | Jun 15, 2021 |
There are lots of human translators who must leave the market right now. Don't know exactly how many, but many. I've had multiple editing jobs where the quality of translation decisions made by a human was consistently inferior to that offered by AI (I have Google Translate running in my CAT tools so I can compare). I can't see how a person with strong translation skills and a creative mind, unwilling to compromise on quality, would be ousted from the market in the foreseeable future, but there ... See more There are lots of human translators who must leave the market right now. Don't know exactly how many, but many. I've had multiple editing jobs where the quality of translation decisions made by a human was consistently inferior to that offered by AI (I have Google Translate running in my CAT tools so I can compare). I can't see how a person with strong translation skills and a creative mind, unwilling to compromise on quality, would be ousted from the market in the foreseeable future, but there are some diploma-wielding 'professionals' who are actually in the business of ruining their own language as well as other nations' languages, and AI is already prepared to take their jobs.
This problem might be especially pronounced in our market just because Russian doesn't translate nicely into other languages, but I can't say it's not a thing in the West. So, for example, I used to work with texts written by Germans, and they had a lot of passages that made no sense and could only be translated by referring to the original German (often as not, I was lucky to find the original version online; sometimes, they'd send it to me; and sometimes, the German text did not even exist). I encountered the same issue working with texts translated from Dutch (could also mention, e. g., French and Italian, but Germany and the Netherlands are better examples because English is widely studied and spoken there; in the case of Dutch, I noticed that some expressions would sound very professional but still couldn't be understood correctly without referring to the original – written by lawyers rather than engineers who are generally not too good with language). I also wonder if education is on the decline throughout the Western world (there are signs suggesting it might be) ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Jumping ship? | Jun 15, 2021 |
I am on a small boat with no one else on board. It's a boat with no corporate ladder, no crew to boss around, and no captain to give out any orders.
There are no rats on this boat. In fact I am on course to leaving the rat race altogether in a few years time (I'm forty btw).
When I will stop, there will be nothing to sell, but that's okay, because there was hardly anything to buy. I will keep my knowledge and skills with me.
Will I jump ship?
I... See more I am on a small boat with no one else on board. It's a boat with no corporate ladder, no crew to boss around, and no captain to give out any orders.
There are no rats on this boat. In fact I am on course to leaving the rat race altogether in a few years time (I'm forty btw).
When I will stop, there will be nothing to sell, but that's okay, because there was hardly anything to buy. I will keep my knowledge and skills with me.
Will I jump ship?
I'll stay the course… until I've reached the shore.
PS: With all the rampant inflation following the frantic money-printing during covid times, I am more concerned with how to increase (not prevent the decline of) translation rates.
[Edited at 2021-06-15 07:45 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Adieu
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
| People will be people | Jun 15, 2021 |
The allure of saying nothing at all, artfully obscured with a smokescreen of technobabble, legalese, military terminology, or канцелярит is eternal.
It's not a western thing or an eastern thing.
People just can't be arsed to do their jobs.
Denis Fesik wrote:
There are lots of human translators who must leave the market right now. Don't know exactly how many, but many. I've had multiple editing jobs where the quality of translation decisions made by a human was consistently inferior to that offered by AI (I have Google Translate running in my CAT tools so I can compare). I can't see how a person with strong translation skills and a creative mind, unwilling to compromise on quality, would be ousted from the market in the foreseeable future, but there are some diploma-wielding 'professionals' who are actually in the business of ruining their own language as well as other nations' languages, and AI is already prepared to take their jobs.
This problem might be especially pronounced in our market just because Russian doesn't translate nicely into other languages, but I can't say it's not a thing in the West. So, for example, I used to work with texts written by Germans, and they had a lot of passages that made no sense and could only be translated by referring to the original German (often as not, I was lucky to find the original version online; sometimes, they'd send it to me; and sometimes, the German text did not even exist). I encountered the same issue working with texts translated from Dutch (could also mention, e. g., French and Italian, but Germany and the Netherlands are better examples because English is widely studied and spoken there; in the case of Dutch, I noticed that some expressions would sound very professional but still couldn't be understood correctly without referring to the original – written by lawyers rather than engineers who are generally not too good with language). I also wonder if education is on the decline throughout the Western world (there are signs suggesting it might be)
[Edited at 2021-06-15 14:15 GMT]
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 10:52
Greek to English
+ ...
Tom in London wrote:
So why are you still here?
Because I'm old, so it takes a little more time to joint the smart camp.
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Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 10:52
Greek to English
+ ...
| Group compliance | Jun 15, 2021 |
Denis Fesik wrote:
I can't see how a person with strong translation skills and a creative mind, unwilling to compromise on quality, would be ousted from the market in the foreseeable future, but there are some diploma-wielding 'professionals' who are actually in the business of ruining their own language as well as other nations' languages, and AI is already prepared to take their jobs.
The creatives may actually be the first to leave or pushed out. Because the majority of the other ones you're mentioning use mildly edited GoogleTrans 24/7 and the creatives can't oppose the majority when it comes to selection by the project manager. The latter doesn't speak the language and will chose the majority opinion (the safe choice).
You present a surprisingly good grasp of the market in this specific posting of yours (I didn't read most of your previous postings), but the reality is that prices keep going down, agencies with decent prices (that is, prices we had 12 years ago) don't have much volume,
and those working from organized Western countries have to report income and pay high taxes etc. It's not a secret that in most countries translators avoid taxes by not reporting income from American agencies (no 1099 requirement, until someone blows the whistle up high).
The expectation of "acceptable income" in Greece for example may be $1,200/month, and $2,000 qualifies as "great", but in the US if you fall below $5,000/month in a cheap area you're not doing well, not really. Unless it's the "second income" of a couple. And it's the same product, same agencies, same prices per unit. That's why translators in the expensive West will be the first to quit, especially those in the role of the "main provider". Because they're paid the same rate with those in the motherland, they have taxes on top of it, and the average standards in their areas are much higher. That is of course if we don't have the "ProAct" in the meantime...
But also because of the use of GoogleTrans and the like, the text from most translators is almost the same as that of the machine. Eventually the end-clients will realize that, and will demand much lower prices. Large agencies have already seen it and have deployed their own MTs, with MT-editing prices at 0.04-0.03 cents per word. Some end-clients have money for now and are still choosing the more pricey options, but when the money printing stops, so will they.
Don't listen to those in here that are trying to convince you they're doing so spectacularly well without almost 24/7 work; they have income from other sources as well or their arrangements are quite beneficial for online unreported income. Your assessment is correct about you benefiting from the low living cost of Russia, which gives you significant flexibility in pricing. You see over here in the US, in the middle-priced area of Chicago, if one falls under $4,000 net income per month, it's time to panic. It's not much different in Alabama. That is also the case for those based in certain organized highly taxed Western countries, where they have to report their income even if it's through Paypal.
About 15 years ago we were working at 0.12/word and some were complaining that it's not enough for quite a few project categories. Inflation-adjusted this should have been 0.16 at least right now, and certainly not "editing MT for 0.03". Reality speaks for itself I guess.
At some point though (and I don't know how the markets are in Russia), think about a real career, not just an eternal "job" where you always have the same title, the same duties, no benefits, and reduced compensation per unit every single year for all your life. There is no chance whatsoever that translation rates will go up, it's only down until they hit a minimum in which you can't find translators easily anymore (about half of what it is now I assume).
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 18:52
Member
English to Turkish
| Russian friends... | Jun 15, 2021 |
I notice that you keep saying things like "European", "West", "Western" etc. Don't you consider yourself European/Western? Geographically you're included in Europe, and your national team are in the Euros (then again so is Turkey, but still...)
| | | | | More about AI | Jun 15, 2021 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
Because the majority of the other ones you're mentioning use mildly edited GoogleTrans 24/7 and the creatives can't oppose the majority when it comes to selection by the project manager. The latter doesn't speak the language and will chose the majority opinion (the safe choice)
I mentioned an 800-page project I had to edit, or rather, translate from scratch. All of it was a 'mild edit' thing, and the customer was refusing to pay for it (they did pay, after I'd given the text a few months of my all-human time). Maybe some MT tools can learn to do research, compare bits of text already available in translation, etc. MT is cheap. Translators who can't compete and are at fault for driving rates down must leave, but those who can tell which jobs can be delegated to AI and are prepared to handle the rest of the jobs can stay in the business. Maybe some customers are happy with just those 'mild edits,' but I wonder if the need for meaningful texts will wither away soon. If you're doing, say, legal translation in my language pair, you have big language differences aggravated by big differences between the law systems. AI cannot make the kind of decisions this work calls for. How will AI translate the segment "Transformer tap/phase (value or position)"? Anything it can make out of these words will be meaningless (boy, was that one hard to figure out). Oh, is the interpreting business going anywhere before all languages but one are banned? I could easily go from written to oral
Baran Keki wrote:
Don't you consider yourself European/Western?
I certainly am a European, and even a 'Westerner' if you find me on the map of Russia, but to me, we're not quite a part of the 'Western world,' but I won't get philosophical about it to avoid going off-topic
[Edited at 2021-06-15 20:46 GMT]
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