| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Getting started in the translation industry. Is a Masters worth it? Thread poster: Ellie Phillips
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Adieu wrote:
Has any translation client ever looked at any of your diplomas?
In 36 years of professional translation work, not a single one.
| | | | Sadek_A 
Local time: 10:58
English to Arabic
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Kaspars Melkis wrote:
translation is not a regulated profession
What? Generally translation is not a regulated profession with the exception of certain areas. There are no rules against doing translation without a degree. Even ISO 17100 allows a possibility that someone without a degree but 5 years of experience can be qualified.
It's only unregulated because of outsiders who are fighting against any regulation. And, at the same time, those same outsiders would never tolerate any alien joining their profession without a relevant degree.
See the dilemma?
Leeches leeching off the profession and off its original folks, and also keeping from any form of regulation because they can only prosper under the current chaos.
Now, let's ask ourselves a simple question: why not get a language degree to join Translation, in the same manner a Translator is required to get a medicine/engineering/law/etc. degree to join those professions?
Here is the answer:
-They don't want to invest the same amount of time that the language-degree holders invested to qualify;
-They don't want to spend the same amount of money that the language-degree holders spent to come across; and
-They don't have the foundation nor the skills to pass a language degree, to begin with.
Is that a fair thing, then? A holder of an academic degree in language would have to compete over their rightful business with all sorts of people, some of whom might actually be much lower in education, such as high school graduates or less?
Then why continue the charade? Let's just close down all language colleges and departments and handle this profession willy nilly, because that's what pleases the leeches.
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
Banning them would be totally unjust discrimination. If someone is qualified to do the job, then let them do it.
You sure?
Well, in the same sense, you won't have the right to object to a plumber performing a surgery on you, they read medical books and they know where all the vital organs are and they feel qualified enough for that coming gutting; or, an electrician handling your lawsuit, they were loyal viewers of Boston Legal and all other courtroom dramas actually and they feel they know all the whereabouts of everything legal. You refusing would only be a "totally unjust discrimination."
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
Specialist texts require deeper understanding of the subject. If we consider that a general translator is able to learn about this subject without a formal degree, then it is also fair to consider that a specialist in this field is able to learn about translation aspects of the trade.
Not true, it's just what you're trying to plant into minds to justify the current chaos. However, specialist texts DO require knowledge of the terminology (hence, dictionaries and glossaries), not of the subject. I don't have to be a coroner to translate a post-mortem report, but I have to be a qualified master of the language (aka., a language-degree holder) and an acquirer of the appropriate terminology (doesn't matter acquirer from where; memory, book, internet, dictionary, glossary, etc.).
Adieu wrote:
Be honest
Has any translation client ever looked at any of your diplomas?
Am I the one targeted by that question? Let's say I am.
The answer is: YES, they had and they still do, and it's not a diploma, I'm a university graduate and a holder of a 4-year Bachelor of Arts in English Language.
So, as you can see, I'm not an amateur whose only stakes in the business dictate continuation of the status quo.
True regulation knows no friends. Standard rule applied to all: I can't join your profession without your degree, you can't join mine without mine.
Lastly, instead of wasting our energy on defending what's wrong, let's invest it in saying and doing what's right.
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:58
Serbian to English
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| Strongly disagree with the strong disagree | May 26, 2021 |
Sadek_A wrote: Anton Konashenok wrote:
Translation is one of several industries where the very best professionals are usually self-taught or have completed a non-degree program. The requisite linguistic aspects of professional translation can be squeezed into one semester or so (or can be learned from the books), ...........
In the world of practical translation, assuming an equal language proficiency, a professional engineer/doctor/lawyer with a little add-on training in translation will routinely outperform a professional linguist with add-on training in technical/medical/legal translation. In a world where engineering/medicine/legal counselling are more needed/appreciated/paid professions, a "professional engineer/doctor/lawyer" straying away from those and joining a publicly-regarded lower-tier profession such as Translation, especially on a freelance basis, is actually a person who is 1) bad at their original profession, 2) out of business in their original profession, or 3) brokering for effortless money at the expense of language-degree holders who are eventually subcontracted to do the job for less money and less or no recognition in the industry. That said, there is also that crucial thing on logistics: - If HR migration is conducted (and, more importantly, allowed) from those professions to Translation, who will be the ones doing those degree-requiring professions? - By giving that fake priority to those outsiders over the original folks of the industry, i.e. language-degree holders, what are those original folks supposed to do for a living? Join those professions without the required degrees, thus breaching law? Or, jam themselves into some other unregulated profession, thus becoming similar to the unwanted outsiders who once drove them out of Translation. - There can never be "an equal language proficiency" between someone who spent several years of their life studying and practicing language and another who spent them on engineering/medicine/legal. - Just about very few of specialized projects, representing only the ultimate tier, ever need to be done by specialized professionals. An accident report - should the policeman cease their original tasks and translate the report instead, or should the victims do so? A toy manual - should the designer cease their original tasks and translate that manual instead, or should the child do so? An electric shaver's Instructions For Use - should the engineer cease their original tasks and translate those instructions instead, or should the barber do so? The most appropriate answer to all of those questions, and to any others that are similar to them, is the 'language-degree holder translator.'
@Sadek_A The whole of your reasoning is based on the idea that there is some kind of "natural entitlement" that you get from purely "linguistic" studies.
Well - I got news for you: there isn't any.
Over the years, I have seen that there wouldn't be much ground for that anyway.
But don't take only my word for it.
Take a look at what have to say about your presumed "entitlement" two of the largest employers of full-time translators in the world.
How do I become a UN translator?
At minimum, a Bachelor's degree in the relevant area is required, but an advanced degree is preferred. Most candidates have additionally earned a degree from an accredited translation school. All candidates usually must be able to translate into their main language from at least two of the other official UN languages
https://www.asta-usa.com/united-nations-translations-accreditation/
So, what you MUST have is a Bachelor's degree in the relevant area [the area of specialisation of the UN agency you'll be working for], while a degree from an accredited translation school is only a nice bonus if you happen to have it.
Still, whatever papers you show them, it counts for zilch unless you pass several tests.
As far various institutions of the European Union are concerned, like the Directorate-General for Translation that employs hundreds of translators, they couldn't care less about a "translation diploma"! Maybe from past experience? They had only few decades at their disposal to "fine-tune" their recruitment criteria ...
Key Qualifications
You must have perfect command of one EU language and a thorough command of at least 2 others, and a degree in any discipline. The selection procedure for translators will focus on your language knowledge and skills in translating, as well as the core competencies required of all EU officials. Find out more about the selection procedure. You may also find our sample tests useful.
https://epso.europa.eu/career-profiles/languages/translator_en
Do you see there ANY mention of a "translation diploma"? Not even as "added bonus". They want to test your real/effective "language knowledge and skills in translating" and couldn't care less how you acquired them.
Should someone make them see the light and inform them that they are giving "fake priority to those outsiders over the original folks of the industry, i.e. language-degree holders, ..."?
Just as a reminder, for decades, producing translations on a very large scale to a quality good enough to eventually be published as EU legislation is their ONLY business ...
To get back to the initial question "is an MA in Translation worth it"?
To get more / better paid work? Not very likely. Considered purely as an investment that is supposed to generate a return, it would be more akin to a sub-prime mortgage, in my opinion.
Is it worth doing it for personal interest? Possibly yes. But I would get first in touch with few people who done that specific MA - always a good idea.
| | | | | Direct clients... | May 26, 2021 |
will never ask to look at your qualifications. Of course, finding enough good direct clients can be hard work, so you may prefer to jump through the hoops set up by most translation agencies (which, in order to be registered with them, normally includes proof of a translation-related qualification). That way, they do all the business-related stuff and you can focus on translating. It all depends on how you want to work and for whom.
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David Hayes wrote:
jump through the hoops set up by most translation agencies (which, in order to be registered with them, normally includes proof of a translation-related qualification).
It's not really true. Good agencies usually give you a test and don't care about your certificates unless it's required for ISO 17100 or similar reasons (but, as Kaspars already mentioned it, your experience is a valid substitute). In fact, it's the way to distinguish good agencies from time wasters: those who require you to fill out huge questionnaires and submit lots of documents before they even consider you aren't very likely to become good clients.
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 09:58
Member
English to Turkish
| With all due respect | May 26, 2021 |
What exactly are they teaching you in translation studies? Do they teach you how to translate an escrow agreement with all the specific American/British English terminology used? Do they teach you how translate MSDS documents, user manuals, patient diaries, privacy notices, newsletters, marketing texts etc. etc.? Do they teach you any of the terminology, style, tone used for such texts, if they do then you should complete your Masters degree in at least 5 years. Money and time well spent.
... See more What exactly are they teaching you in translation studies? Do they teach you how to translate an escrow agreement with all the specific American/British English terminology used? Do they teach you how translate MSDS documents, user manuals, patient diaries, privacy notices, newsletters, marketing texts etc. etc.? Do they teach you any of the terminology, style, tone used for such texts, if they do then you should complete your Masters degree in at least 5 years. Money and time well spent.
I remember one Translation Masters graduate here saying they don't even teach them "how much to charge your clients". That should be another course to be included in the curriculum.
Translation is all about experience. The best school for it is an in-house position at a translation agency where you can learn from other experienced translators and by translating different content to hone your skills. ▲ Collapse
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This has been your experience. Nevertheless, since my experience of translation agencies throughout the world has been different, I thought it worth sharing this point. If agencies take part in calls for bids, for example, they increasingly have to prove that their translators are qualified. Whether this is a good idea or not is another matter.
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 09:58
Member
English to Turkish
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Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 09:58
Member
English to Turkish
| I'd be careful about presenting my diplomas | May 26, 2021 |
Adieu wrote:
Has any translation client ever looked at any of your diplomas?
[Edited at 2021-05-25 21:40 GMT]
The only ones that were so eager to see my diplomas were the dodgy ones looking to steal/forge them. One of them stole my CV (changed my name of course) and sent it to my former employer along with a cover letter (again my cover letter, I never figured out where/how he stole it) for registering as a 'Turkish freelance translator' (that guy was a Palestinian, didn't speak a word of Turkish, but I'm sure he's also registered as a Swedish or Spanish translator elsewhere).
Btw, imagine that, you go through all that trouble, spend years and money on a Masters degree and some b*****d steals it from you under the pretext of hiring you or considering for the 'position' and uses it enter into the database of a ISO certified Belgian or French translation agency to outsource jobs in your language pair to you at one third of your rate. How wonderful is that?
[Edited at 2021-05-26 10:42 GMT]
[Edited at 2021-05-26 10:46 GMT]
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But you don’t do an MA just to have a piece of paper to wave around.
It’s a year of learning the basics of the craft. How to approach different types of texts. How to do research. How to proofread your work. How to use software. Lots of practice with no consequences. Yes, you can pick it all up on your own. Translation is hardly rocket science. But a year of friendly guidance will help.
As my daughter always says (based on kayaking but even so):
Practic... See more But you don’t do an MA just to have a piece of paper to wave around.
It’s a year of learning the basics of the craft. How to approach different types of texts. How to do research. How to proofread your work. How to use software. Lots of practice with no consequences. Yes, you can pick it all up on your own. Translation is hardly rocket science. But a year of friendly guidance will help.
As my daughter always says (based on kayaking but even so):
Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent.
So you need some kind of supervision to do it right in the first place. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Adieu
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
Ice Scream wrote:
But you don’t do an MA just to have a piece of paper to wave around.
It’s a year of learning the basics of the craft. How to approach different types of texts. How to do research. How to proofread your work. How to use software. Lots of practice with no consequences. Yes, you can pick it all up on your own. Translation is hardly rocket science. But a year of friendly guidance will help.
As my daughter always says (based on kayaking but even so):
Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent.
So you need some kind of supervision to do it right in the first place.
Rich people solutions...to poor people problems
Btw, what you're describing really belongs in community college, not degree programs
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 10:58
English to Arabic
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Of course, a system where a translator is vetted through copies of (1)language degree certificate, (2)passport/national ID, and (3)bank account holding the exact same name as the previous 2 documents, is the best regulation there is against thieves of credentials; however, once you dare bring up those 3 verifications, some will object to having a language degree in the first place, others will object to presenting any ID, and a third group will object to receiving payments under the same full na... See more Of course, a system where a translator is vetted through copies of (1)language degree certificate, (2)passport/national ID, and (3)bank account holding the exact same name as the previous 2 documents, is the best regulation there is against thieves of credentials; however, once you dare bring up those 3 verifications, some will object to having a language degree in the first place, others will object to presenting any ID, and a third group will object to receiving payments under the same full name they allege to represent. So, where does that leave us?
It leaves us with an overwhelming irony to the effect of "come up with a fix that protects me from others, but not others from me."
Well, as they say, one can't have their cake and eat it too.
Those who want to be protected must abide by the rules, starting with getting a language degree. ▲ Collapse
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| In defence of the MA... | May 26, 2021 |
Adieu wrote:
Btw, what you're describing really belongs in community college, not degree programs
What I described is some of the practical elements of a university postgraduate programme I actually did, and later taught on.
I think the practical side was most important. The quality of students’ translations at the start of the course was appalling, and they just didn’t realise it. They could only translate literally. They couldn’t write in different styles. They were blind to typos. Their grasp of the foreign language, especially grammar, was deeply flawed. And these were language graduates. By the end, though, some of them were quite good. Should that learning curve really be happening out in the real world?
There were also purely academic elements of the programme, such as translation theory, which I detested. Plus courses in things like law, accounting and economics, which were very useful. I knew nothing about economics before that; now I do economic translations for a central bank, so I must have picked up something.
Had I had to pay tuition fees, I’d still have paid them off in a year or two. As it was, I lived off earnings from doing translations that were passed on by the translators teaching on the course.
So it’s not really a “rich people solution”. Just an investment. I think it was totally worthwhile.
It led to me being offered three different in-house jobs, and directly to four agency clients, and even now, 28 years on, 90% of the work I do can still be traced back in some way to contacts made on the programme.
I went on to employ three graduates from the programme, and subcontract to two others. Oh, and I married one as well.
So no, it’s not essential, but I think it’s a good idea for most people.
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:58
Serbian to English
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| The small fly in the ointment ... | May 26, 2021 |
David Hayes wrote:
This has been your experience. Nevertheless, since my experience of translation agencies throughout the world has been different, I thought it worth sharing this point. If agencies take part in calls for bids, for example, they increasingly have to prove that their translators are qualified. Whether this is a good idea or not is another matter.
The small fly in the ointment ... being that most likely than not they will wave your qualifications in front of the client to get the contract, and then give the actual work to whoever cheapest is available. A variation on "bait and switch".
And anyway the "qualification required" will not necessarily be always a translation diploma.
BTW, I totally subscribe to the principle of
"Think education is expensive? Try the cost of ignorance"
It's simply that I'm not convinced of the value of that specific one (MA in Translation).
[Edited at 2021-05-26 18:03 GMT]
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 10:58
English to Arabic
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| Trebling it for you, Daryo | May 26, 2021 |
Daryo wrote:
@Sadek_A The whole of your reasoning is based on the idea that there is some kind of "natural entitlement" that you get from purely "linguistic" studies.
Well - I got news for you: there isn't any.
No, there is not "some kind of natural entitlement", there is the whole and only entitlement.
You get a degree in a foreign language, your prompt job choices are translator, teacher, or language trainer.
It just gives me the chuckles that you are contesting that "natural entitlement" for language-degree holders while you are granting it upon outsiders who didn't do their homework.
Imagine saying that sentence of yours to someone who spent 4 years of university busting their humps, punching holes in their pockets and getting a degree in engineering, law, etc. 😝😂
YOU ARE NOT NATURALLY ENTITLED TO BE AN ENGINEER, LAWYER, ETC., JUST BECAUSE YOU GOT THE APPROPRIATE DEGREE.
If you're going to refer to the UN, don't do it through a proxy.
Here are 2 links from the UN:
https://jobs.undp.org/cj_view_job.cfm?cur_job_id=98535
Criterion A: Bachelor degree
Bachelor degree...................................................... 05 points
Degree is in translation............................................ 15 points
So, if you're a relevant field BA guy, you get 5 pts.
But, if you're a translation BA guy, you get the whole 20.
What does that say exactly?
https://jobs.undp.org/cj_view_job.cfm?cur_job_id=33450
Evaluation Criteria:
Expertise:
Required academic background – Diploma degree in translation: 1-2 years: 15 points; 3-4 years : 20 points; B.A Degree or higher in translation: 25 points
So, once again, if you're a translation BA guy, you score the highest on that item.
There seems to be a pattern suggesting that the person who spent (1) 4 years (2) studying the language and its arts, including translation, is better than the one who didn't.
How about a third link from a university, in the US. Let's see what they have to say about the topic:
https://www.gcu.edu/blog/language-communication/translator-what-degree-do-you-need
(1)"Typically, a translation degree refers to a bachelor’s degree in a certain language."
(2)"This degree would equip you with the necessary skills and knowledge to pursue a successful career as a professional translator."
(3)"A bachelor’s translation degree is all that is required to enter the field."
Daryo wrote:
To get back to the initial question "is an MA in Translation worth it"?
Under current chaotic market conditions? NO. It would be insane to get one.
BA degree in language is the top for current market.
What's your education, Daryo? It should help us better understand the perspective you're coming from.
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