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which is threatened in holy writ
cracking
Apr 5, 2016 14:14
8 yrs ago
8 viewers *
English term

100-m2 office vs. 100 m2 office

English Other Linguistics Punctuation
100-mL flask, 250-mg capsules, 40-year-old woman; but "100-m2 office" doesn't quite look right.

Following the rule it should be hyphenated (shouldn't it?), but I can't remember seeing examples with the hyphen.

Thanks for any suggestions.
Responses
4 +3 100-m2
4 +7 100 m²
References
BBC Academy - Journalism - Numbers

Discussion

Björn Vrooman Apr 20, 2016:
@Neil Now, I am thoroughly confused. I quoted NIST in the second discussion entry I made.

But, as we have figured out recently (see also http://www.proz.com/kudoz/English/science_general/6090382-ke... ), UK sources can't seem to agree on a common standard, really. It seems much easier for Americans.
Neil Ashby (asker) Apr 20, 2016:
@ Geoffrey Boycott's enemy ;@) Probably loss adjustors! It has nothing to do with renting offices, it's an area of a ship's deck which has been separated and converted into an office. The document is atually an accident report but it includes all sorts of information on the ship's repair/refitting.

Does that shed more light for you?

(BTW - "I'm a Yorkshireman, born and bred, strong in the arm and thick in the 'ed" ..... it goes on ;@)
Lancashireman Apr 20, 2016:
The International System of Units (SI) "Long the language universally used in science..."
Is this 100m2 office being used for scientific purposes or is it being advertised for rental? Who is the intended readership?
Neil Ashby (asker) Apr 20, 2016:
FWIW - maybe I'd change my choice, if I could: There is a space between the numerical value and unit symbol, even when the value is used in an adjectival sense, except in the case of superscript units for plane angle.
proper: a 25 kg sphere
an angle of 2° 3' 4"
If the spelled-out name of a unit is used, the normal rules of English apply: "a roll of 35-millimeter film."
improper: a 25-kg sphere
an angle of 2 ° 3 ' 4 "
http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/checklist.html
Lancashireman Apr 12, 2016:
Happy memories of the last debate http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/medical_pharmace...
Björn Vrooman Apr 11, 2016:
"For example, Björn's first reference below this post says 'so-called,' and I think 'so called' would be wrong."

Frankly, I don't appreciate it if people are trying to twist my statements. I never said anything about hyphen usage in general.

If you want to play the "EN variant card," don't forget about the British predilection for omitting commas wherever possible. It's something that surely didn't start in the US and it's beginning to confuse readers, as ever longer sentence parts preceding the subject are inserted without the separation by a comma. Personally, I don't like this trend either, but I can only speak for myself. If other's don't mind, that's their prerogative.

The only definite rules on metric units you'll find are from the American Department of Commerce and the BBC on the British side, but the BBC does not (!) use "m2" at all.

I also quoted several sources taking a different approach (BTW, the Guardian doesn't use "sq m," but "sq metre"). Neil's EU EMA and other references don't talk one bit about hyphens and m2.

A glossary entry is meaningless. If you don't like the style guides, go organize a protest march. Or pick what works best for you - as I recommended.
philgoddard Apr 11, 2016:
Thanks for the points, Neil. I think it would be sad if we said hyphens are dying out, so we may as well go with the flow. I think they still serve an important purpose in clarifying meaning and making text easier to read. For example, Björn's first reference below this post says "so-called", and I think "so called" would be wrong.
Björn Vrooman Apr 10, 2016:
continued... "The 100 sq m (1,100 sq ft) site at The Kidneys is one of 60 so-called 'bee worlds' being created in the UK until the end of May."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-22398000

"This applies to new apartments sold at twice the average cost per sq m, with the first 100 sq m exempt from taxation."
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-12686549

Just to name a few. You may agree with me that this is not at all consistent. Even the Guardian - a newspaper I consider to be more consistent in that regard - uses "sq m" and no hyphen:
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2007/sep/15/2
http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/architecture-design-...

However, if a hyphen works better for you: Use it. The EMA EU does use a space as you suggested (http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/document_library/Procure... ), but despite a paragraph on Hyphenated Numbers, it hardly clears up the issue whether to use a hyphen for m2 and the like.

As I said before: Consistency is key. If your usage is not a flat-out rejection of the style guide you're supposed to follow, decide such things on your own.
Björn Vrooman Apr 10, 2016:
@Neil I think you misunderstood something.

The link I quoted below is from NIST and it is said on the page:
"The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) is an agency of the U.S. Department of Commerce."

Across the pond, the answer chosen would most definitely not be in line with official specifications. The other organization, AMA, is also an American association; I was just trying to make the point that there are different rules one can follow. They depend on what works best for you or the person who gave you the article.

Choosing an answer at all is probably not good in this case - if an American looks up this question, he or she will be pretty confused.

"I think it should be there (so does the BBC and that's good enough for me"

As you can see, I agree with Helena, but not with Phil's answer. Why? Because if you're writing it according to BBC rules, it should be "100-sq-m office" - the BBC does not use "100 m2".

Add to that the fact that the BBC breaks its own rules many times:
"Tony and Ruth want to build a 200 sq m house with a 100 sq m basement on their £99,000 budget"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/tv/entries/ed64a6f7-daf2-3727-99c...
Neil Ashby (asker) Apr 10, 2016:
Thanks for your input everyone "........45° angle temperature of 37.5°C (not 37.5° C or 37.5 °C)"
Bjorn, I disagree with this quote and so do most authorities (EU EMA, IUPAC); there should be a non-breaking space between the quantity and unit of °C, i.e., "37.5 °C" is the correct form of writing this. A degree ° symbol is only placed directly next to the quantity for angles.

Regarding the hyphen; I don't see how a rule is a rule but only applied sometimes.... I think it should be there (so does the BBC and that's good enough for me, for UK English) and I'm going to put it there.

Thanks all for your thoughts, I can see it just comes down to which style manual you read (which generally seem to try and contradict each other just to be different from the next). In my opinion "10-mL flask" is most definitely correct; that's how I was taught at university, and I'm going to stick to it.

Thanks all.
Björn Vrooman Apr 6, 2016:
Funny... ...the AMA Manual of Style agrees with me:
"With the exception of the percent sign, the degree sign (for temperature and angles), and normal and molar solutions (see , Conventional Units and SI Units in JAMA and the Archives Journals, Solutions and Concentration), a full space should appear between the arabic numeral indicating the quantity and the unit of measure.140 nmol/L (not 140nmol/L) 135-150 nmol/L 120 mm Hg 40% adherence rate 40%-50% 45° angle temperature of 37.5°C (not 37.5° C or 37.5 °C)"
http://www.amamanualofstyle.com/oso/search:downloadsearchres...

My recommendation is:
Consistency is key. If you can explain why you write it like that and you have sources to back you up, I don't believe this will get you into any trouble - unless, of course, you're not consistent in your application of those rules.

And to the issue of spelling out the unit, I will quote the BBC here:
"Never write ‘square kilometres’, but always sq km."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/journalism/article/art201307021...

See, it all depends.
Björn Vrooman Apr 6, 2016:
PS Cilian's example is not applicable here because all of what he quotes refers to spelled-out units. Neil asked about the abbreviated versions.

Admittedly, I disregard the rule below when it comes to degree Celsius, simply because degree is abbreviated using a symbol, not letters and the space is just irritating in my opinion. But that is something you may or may not be able to agree on with the person who gave you the article to be translated.
Björn Vrooman Apr 6, 2016:
@Tony, Phil, and Neil After my long absence from this forum, I didn't quite expect such a heated discussion to be the first thing I see here. But, oh well.

I'll have to defend Tony here and I am a bit confused where you, Phil, get your information from.

Let me quote from an official reference, as in:
"SP 811 provides an editorial checklist for reviewing manuscripts' conformity with the SI and the basic principles of physical quantities and units."

"A space is used between the number and the symbol to which it refers. For example: 7 m, 31.4 kg, 37 °C."

It goes on to explain:
"When a metric value is used as a one-thought modifier before a noun, hyphenating the quantity is not necessary."

"However, if a hyphen is used, write out the name of the metric quantity with the hyphen between the numeral and the quantity."
http://www.nist.gov/pml/wmd/metric/writing-metric.cfm

Not sure you where the difficulty is. Besides, if I recall correctly, an abbreviated measurement always refers to the number preceding it, so there is no confusion whatsoever.

Let's say you have "six hundred-liter buckets." Under no circumstances will you be able to write "I put up six hundred l buckets."
Tony M Apr 5, 2016:
@ Phil Well, it's a well-documented fact, included in several highly respected US style guides, and has been discussed at great length in this forum on a number of occasions.
Other than that, it is also based my own entirely empirical observation of documents from both sides of the pond, at least SOME of which must have been written by "professional wordsmiths" and certainly "journalists" (e.g. Washington Post, New York Times); it is also extremely noticeable on this forum, VERY often when there is an issue with comprehension / source-text parsing, it turns out that the document is of US origin (though of course we are not really in a position to judge the literary skills of its writer!)
philgoddard Apr 5, 2016:
I'd like to know where you get your evidence that the UK and the US are different. In my extensive experience as a Brit living in the US, people in both countries with a less than perfect grasp of punctuation get it wrong; journalists and other professional wordsmiths get it right.
Tony M Apr 5, 2016:
@ Phil I beg to differ there, Phil: there IS quite a divergence between US and GB usage here. There is still a much greater tendency to use hyphens to aid comprehension in GB, whereas in US EN they have been all but eliminated; and this goes for hyphens in running text as well as in special cases like these of numbers + units.

I don't condone this move, but it cannot but be admitted that this practice has become so widely accepted in US grammar, it can no longer really be regarded as 'wrong'.
philgoddard Apr 5, 2016:
I don't think it's anything to do with British/American differences or personal preferences. Omitting the hyphen is wrong, even if lots of people do it.

Lots of people ignore apostrophes too, especially with the rise of texting. But that doesn't mean it's grammatically correct, which is presumably what Neil is asking.
Cilian O'Tuama Apr 5, 2016:
M.-W. (US) says: Compound modifiers that include a number followed by a noun (except for the noun percent) are hyphenated when they precede the noun they modify, but usually not when they follow it. (For details on measurement, see "Units of Measurement," paragraph 42.)

the four-color press
a 12-foot-high fence
a fence 12 feet high
a 300-square-mile area
an area of 300 square miles
but
a 10 percent raise

If a currency symbol precedes the number, the hyphen is omitted.
an $8.5 million deficit
Anton Konashenok Apr 5, 2016:
UK vs. US I have an impression that Brits would be much more likely than Americans to use a hyphen in such a context. On the other hand, it's also very much a matter of personal preference.
Tony M Apr 5, 2016:
@ Maurizio I tend to agree with your points, however, the use of the hyphen specifically in this sort of case to indicate attributive use is traditional in EN grammar.

I think your point is very relevant, that when SI-standard units are being used with the regulation space, it can be less than helpful to occupy that space with a hyphen — note too that unless a non-breaking hyphen is used, it can cause unitentional hyphenation betwene the figure and the units, which is definitely NOT required! As you say, when the unit is written out in full, it somehow seems less intrusive: 'a 9-volt battery'
BdiL Apr 5, 2016:
Though not a native English speaker I am very keen and attentive to hyphenation, which does not seem the rule nowadays. I wish to express my humble opinion. The only phrase that really looks right to me is "40-year-old woman". Even though a capital el (L) is accepted for liter (litre) I prefer "ml" as the symbol for milliliter, but... I would hyphenate if the unit were spelt out (milliliter, milligram etc.), thus: 100-milliliter flask. But, also visually, the hyphenation conflicts with the standard that a space should separate the number from the unit symbol. Therefore I find 100 ml flask quite acceptable. I understand that you posted an ENGLISH LANGUAGE question, still, also provided that many do not hyphenate (probably they don't even know how to), I would consider that the unit denomination shows its attributive value anyhow. (Just thinking out loud, in the hope it can help you.) Ciao. Maurizio

Responses

+3
8 mins
Selected

100-m2

Yes, there should be a hyphen. It's exactly the same as your first three examples: the hyphen is needed to clarify that 100 and m2 belong together.

That said, I normally avoid using m2 because it's a form of shorthand, like %. I certainly wouldn't use it in, say, a brochure or magazine article - I'd spell it out as 100-square-metre.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 mins (2016-04-05 14:25:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It presumably goes without saying that the 2 should be superscript.
Peer comment(s):
agree Cilian O'Tuama : most compound adjectives are hyphenated
19 mins
Yes, and I don't see why Tony distinguishes between a five-foot plank and a 100 m2 office.
agree Polangmar
2 hrs
agree Helena Chavarria : I also use 16th-century building, even though it looks strange.
8 hrs
Thanks! I don't think it looks strange at all. "16th century building" looks strange in my opinion.
neutral BdiL : Your point about "shorthand" is certainly a strong one. Dardano and Trifone in their Manual of Style say exactly that. Maurizio
21 hrs
neutral Tony M : Like BDF, I tend to feel the hyphen is only really necessary when the units are spelt out, but not when they are used in abbreviation; hence 'five-foot plank' and '16th-century church'
21 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Phil, I'm with you on this one ;)"
+7
16 mins

100 m²

Although as a purist I would agree with Phil and your own argument, I can't help but notice that the tendency these days is more often to leave it out, except perhaps where the dimension is being used in a very clearly adjectival way, such as 'a five-foot plank'.

But where it is merely the dimension of something, as would normally be the case in the examples you cite, I'd say that it is very commonly omitted these days. In your particular instance, you might well consider it as "100 m² of office space" (which would not of course be the case in your other examples).
Peer comment(s):
agree Shera Lyn Parpia
4 mins
Thanks, Shera!
neutral philgoddard : I'm glad you're so laid back about the decline of hyphens! I think they're not just a stylistic choice, but are essential to clarify the meaning so you don't have to stop reading and think hang on, what are they saying here.
13 mins
Totally agree, Phil — but sadly, it's those Yanks who have this nasty habit of leaving them out altogether, as we so often see here with incorrectly parsed questions. In this instance, I don't think they help much, unless 5 litre buckets / 5-litre buckets
agree Victoria Britten : I would go so far as to say it's a tendency that's heading towards the norm, and this particular instance, with the superscript 2, actually looks odd to my eyes if hyphenated. And it isn't necessarily confusing: could "5 l buckets" actually give pause?
2 hrs
Thanks, Victoria! Exactly, no confusion if units are abbreviated, but possibly confusion if written in full.
agree Yasutomo Kanazawa : There are more Google hits without the hyphen, and I also see this particular term without the hyphen in my translation jobs.
15 hrs
Thanks, Yasutomo san!
agree B D Finch : I think it is wrong (in UK English) to use a hyphen with an abbreviation for the units of measurement.
18 hrs
Thanks, B! Yes, I think that to me is the key criterion here.
agree BdiL : I am happy this question prompted such an educated debate. Over many years I always found your posts to be documented, balanced and corteous; thanks for what you said @ me. I must add that I think philgoddard falls in the same category as you. MAu
21 hrs
Grazie, Maurizio ! And especially for your kind words. :-)
agree Björn Vrooman : Agree with what Victoria said. Everything else, see discussion. No need for overcomplicating the issue.
22 hrs
Thanks, Björn!
agree Harry Crawford
2 days 11 hrs
Thanks, Harry!
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

23 hrs
Reference:

BBC Academy - Journalism - Numbers

Where instantly recognisable abbreviations exist, these should be used throughout, even at first reference. For example, the words ‘metre’, ‘kilometre’ are not written out in full even at first reference; use the abbreviations m and km. All numbers preceding abbreviations should be rendered as digits; where units are written out in full, our usual numbers convention is followed. There should not be a gap between number and abbreviated unit, and units of measurement do not in general take an ‘s’ in the plural.

Adjectival phrases defining areas should include hyphens in both metric and imperial measures. Always mention both; the context will determine which comes first - eg: The French fishermen denied reports that they had been operating inside the X-sq-km (Y-sq-mile) zone (note: there is no ‘s’ on nouns used adjectivally). Elsewhere, there is no need for hyphens - eg: The UK government is calling for a ban on fishing within a zone of X sq miles (Y sq km).

Abbreviations should be used throughout. Never write ‘square kilometres’, but always sq km. There is no acceptable abbreviation for ‘miles’, so write sq miles (and, adjectivally, sq-mile).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/journalism/article/art201307021...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2016-04-10 13:48:34 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Glad to be of help ;-)
Note from asker:
So the BBC is advocating the use of hyphens in abbreviations, as per their example - "X-sq-km zone". Thanks Helena.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Björn Vrooman : Thanks. The first British reference that is on topic. However, please see the American reference I posted in the discussion box. I still believe it depends on your employer's preference and the EN variant.//PS: Rephrase? How about 100 m2 of office space?
33 mins
I like your idea of rephrasing, it sounds more natural. Thank you, Björn :-)
agree philgoddard : It looks like the majority of people here disagree with the BBC.
36 mins
Yes, so it seems! Thank you, Phil :-)
agree Lancashireman : Thanks for this. "There should not be a gap between number and abbreviated unit..." The third way that seems to have been totally ignored in the above debate!
14 days
Thanks for agreeing, I'm pleased you find it useful :-)
Something went wrong...
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