Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Portuguese term or phrase:
presidente vs. ministra
English translation:
Chief Justice vs. Justice
Added to glossary by
Oliver Simões
Dec 13, 2022 10:17
1 yr ago
26 viewers *
Portuguese term
United States
BA in Transl., MA in ESL, 15 yrs of exp.
Native in: Portuguese 
Works in: English to Portuguese, Portuguese to English, Spanish to Portuguese, and 2 more.
presidente vs. ministra
Portuguese to English
Other
Law (general)
court ceremonial session
Sua excelência, a presidente do Supremo Tribunal Federal, ministra Rosa Weber.
The terms are found in a ceremonial session of certification of Brazil's new president-elect (that I'm using for legal interpretation practice). They were used by the Electoral Court's Chief Justice as he announced the names of those who were going to form the tribune of honor.
As far as I know, "presidente" has different translations in EN-US, depending on the context:
Presidente de tribunais superiores (incluindo de 2a. instância): Chief Justice
Presidente (da Câmara e do Senado): Speaker
Presidente (de uma mesa diretora): Chair; Chairman/Chairwoman
Likewise, "ministro" can be a minister of government or a superior court judge.
So in the above sentence, what sounds more natural in EN-US?
1. Her excellency, the Chief Justice of the Federal Supreme Court, Justice Rosa Weber
2. Her excellency, the President of the Federal Supreme Court, Justice Rosa Weber
3. Her excellency, the Chief Justice of the Federal Supreme Court, Minister Rosa Weber
4. Her excellency, the President o the Federal Supreme Court, Minister Rosa Weber
I've seen different combinations online, hence the question. Thank you all.
L2: EN-US
Register: legal
The terms are found in a ceremonial session of certification of Brazil's new president-elect (that I'm using for legal interpretation practice). They were used by the Electoral Court's Chief Justice as he announced the names of those who were going to form the tribune of honor.
As far as I know, "presidente" has different translations in EN-US, depending on the context:
Presidente de tribunais superiores (incluindo de 2a. instância): Chief Justice
Presidente (da Câmara e do Senado): Speaker
Presidente (de uma mesa diretora): Chair; Chairman/Chairwoman
Likewise, "ministro" can be a minister of government or a superior court judge.
So in the above sentence, what sounds more natural in EN-US?
1. Her excellency, the Chief Justice of the Federal Supreme Court, Justice Rosa Weber
2. Her excellency, the President of the Federal Supreme Court, Justice Rosa Weber
3. Her excellency, the Chief Justice of the Federal Supreme Court, Minister Rosa Weber
4. Her excellency, the President o the Federal Supreme Court, Minister Rosa Weber
I've seen different combinations online, hence the question. Thank you all.
L2: EN-US
Register: legal
Proposed translations
(English)
| 5 +4 | Chief Justice vs. Justice |
Juliana Costa
|
| 3 +1 | Chair(woman) vs. Judiciary Committee Senator (UK: Departmental Minister) |
Adrian MM.
|
Proposed translations
+4
3 hrs
Juliana Costa
Brazil
Brazil
Native in Portuguese
Works in field
Brazil
Urgent needs solved fast.
Native in: Portuguese (Variant: Brazilian)
Works in: Portuguese to English, English to Portuguese
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Selected
Chief Justice vs. Justice
The most common official occurences.
Example sentence:
This Monday, Justice Rosa Weber takes office as Chief Justice of the Supreme Federal Court (STF) and of the National Council of Justice (CNJ).
Note from asker:
| Thank you. It makes sense. I've both in addressing the head of Brazil's Supreme Court: (1) president: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/pro-bolsonaro-protests-escalate-in-brazil-after-election-loss (2) chief justice: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-latin-america-63407865 |
| Correction: I've seen both... |
| In response to Phil's comment: I would not use "judge" as a synonym for "justice" (meaning a higher court judge). I think the same hierarchical principle applies here when you say "teacher" vs. "professor", or "kill" vs. "assassinate". The hierarchy is built into the language. Does that make sense? |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
philgoddard
: I would say "judge" to avoid repeating "justice". You could also say "president of the supreme court".
2 hrs
|
| agree |
Andrew Bramhall
: Agree with Phil;
2 hrs
|
| agree |
Mario Freitas
:
6 hrs
|
| agree |
Beatriz Souza
12 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you, Juliana and all who contributed with their comments/opinions. "
+1
5 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Specializes in field
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: British, Scottish) 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
115
Chair(woman) vs. Judiciary Committee Senator (UK: Departmental Minister)
EN-US Register: legal
It is quite possible, in the UK and as an exception to the doctrine of separation of powers, to straddle law enforcement and politics. Cut to the Attorney-General and Lord Chancellor in England & Wales, both of whom are also members of the Prime Minister's Cabinet. Scottish 'equivalents': Advocate Depute vs. Procurator Fiscal and Lord Advocate.
Compare also the hybrid political and legal functions of members of the US Senate Judiciary Committee and the UK Privy Council.
'The Privy Council is the mechanism through which interdepartmental agreement is reached on those items of Government business which, for historical or other reasons, fall to Ministers as Privy Counsellors rather than as Departmental Ministers. The Rt Hon Penny Mordaunt was appointed as Lord (Lady !) President of the Council in September 2022.'
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Note added at 3 days 15 hrs (2022-12-17 01:19:58 GMT) Post-grading
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Judiciary Committee Senator (Minister in the UK) is exclusive to the USA where you appear to be located.
It is quite possible, in the UK and as an exception to the doctrine of separation of powers, to straddle law enforcement and politics. Cut to the Attorney-General and Lord Chancellor in England & Wales, both of whom are also members of the Prime Minister's Cabinet. Scottish 'equivalents': Advocate Depute vs. Procurator Fiscal and Lord Advocate.
Compare also the hybrid political and legal functions of members of the US Senate Judiciary Committee and the UK Privy Council.
'The Privy Council is the mechanism through which interdepartmental agreement is reached on those items of Government business which, for historical or other reasons, fall to Ministers as Privy Counsellors rather than as Departmental Ministers. The Rt Hon Penny Mordaunt was appointed as Lord (Lady !) President of the Council in September 2022.'
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days 15 hrs (2022-12-17 01:19:58 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
Judiciary Committee Senator (Minister in the UK) is exclusive to the USA where you appear to be located.
Example sentence:
A conversation with former Minister of Justice Sergio Moro on Brazil’s democracy, the fight against corruption, and viability of a third-way presidential candidate in this year’s election.
The US Senate Committee on the Judiciary (Senate Judiciary Committee) is a standing committee of 22 U.S. senators whose role is to oversee the Department of Justice (DOJ), consider executive & judicial nominations, as well as review pending legislation.
Note from asker:
| Sorry, the translation IS NOT into British English, and it has nothing to do with the Senate. |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
philgoddard
: You do know that Britain is not the same as Brazil? I know their names are a bit similar, so it's an easy mistake to make.
22 mins
|
|
Can't you read ? I have given a US American equivalent that you - in the US - may be unfamiliar with.
|
|
| agree |
Beatriz Souza
10 hrs
|
|
Obrigado and thanks.
|
Reference comments
2 hrs
Reference:
president vs. minister
THE Minister Rosa Weber took over as president of the Federal Supreme Court (STF) this Monday afternoon - https://portugal.postsen.com/trends/110892/Rosa-Weber-takes-...
Rosa Maria Pires Weber[nota 1] (Porto Alegre, 2 de outubro de 1948)[3] é uma magistrada brasileira, atual ministra e presidente do Supremo Tribunal Federal (STF), ex-presidente do Tribunal Superior Eleitoral (TSE) e ex-ministra do Tribunal Superior do Trabalho (TST). - https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Weber#:~:text=Rosa Maria ...
A ministra Rosa Weber assume a Presidência do Supremo Tribunal Federal e também do Conselho Nacional de Justiça. - https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=502367205065428
Rosa Maria Pires Weber[nota 1] (Porto Alegre, 2 de outubro de 1948)[3] é uma magistrada brasileira, atual ministra e presidente do Supremo Tribunal Federal (STF), ex-presidente do Tribunal Superior Eleitoral (TSE) e ex-ministra do Tribunal Superior do Trabalho (TST). - https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Weber#:~:text=Rosa Maria ...
A ministra Rosa Weber assume a Presidência do Supremo Tribunal Federal e também do Conselho Nacional de Justiça. - https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=502367205065428
Note from asker:
| Obrigado. "Minister" cria uma confusão desnecessária. Veja discussão no DB. "President" é aceitável, mas em EN-US "Chief Justice" faz mais sentido! |
3 hrs
Juliana Costa
Brazil
Brazil
Native in Portuguese
Works in field
Brazil
Urgent needs solved fast.
Native in: Portuguese (Variant: Brazilian)
Works in: Portuguese to English, English to Portuguese
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Reference:
Justice and Chief Justice
Used as approximation to the same positions on US Supreme Court.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2022-12-13 13:28:59 GMT)
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Also, please do not use Your Exellency, but Your Honor.
https://www.fedcourt.gov.au/going-to-court/forms_address#:~:...
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Note added at 3 hrs (2022-12-13 13:28:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Also, please do not use Your Exellency, but Your Honor.
https://www.fedcourt.gov.au/going-to-court/forms_address#:~:...
Example sentence:
his Monday, Justice Rosa Weber takes office as Chief Justice of the Supreme Federal Court (STF)
The chief justice, who is also to chair the National Justice Council, will be in charge of the court for one year.
Note from asker:
| Honor indeed. I didn't realize that the announcement was made by the master of ceremony, not by Justice Moraes himself. But definitely "HER honor" because the announcement is addressed to the audience, not the judge. In addressing a judge, a lawyer or his/her client would say "Your Honor". |
| Thank you for your references. |
Discussion
As in, the PM sent a PM to the PM at 2 pm.
All perfectly clear (well almost).
The obvious point about ministro/minister, is that minister does not designate a judicial figure in English, which is why minister is not a good translation of ministro, unless we are referring to a member of a government.
In some instances, literality is justified by usage. For example, in PT-Br we normally say “secretário de Estado” when referring to the US Secretary of State rather than “ministro de Estado”, even though a “secretário” has a lessen rank than a “ministro”. Go figure!
1. THE Minister Rosa Weber took over as president of the Federal Supreme Court (STF) this Monday afternoon -
2. Rosa Maria Pires Weber[nota 1] (Porto Alegre, 2 de outubro de 1948)[3] é uma magistrada brasileira, atual ministra e presidente do Supremo Tribunal Federal (STF),
I am enlightened every day :-) Perhaps Oliver's option to avoid using the term 'minister' is best as it would be confusing to most other English speakers who understand 'minister' to be a high government office or some kind of Church of England priest.
I assumed judges could not be politicians at the same time or vice versa