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Oct 14, 2013 03:40
10 yrs ago
French term

Si les avocats et les curés ont des robes....

French to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature Quote/Citation
This is a quote by Sacha Guitry that I love:

"Si les avocats et les curés ont des robes, c'est parce qu'ils sont aussi **menteurs** que les femmes."

I do not believe that there is an official translation so here is the translation I have come up with:

"If lawyers and priests wear robes, it is because they are as **untruthful** as women."

Has anybody got a better adjective than "untruthful" maybe?

Thank you!
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 If lawyers and priests wear robes, it is because they lie as skillfully as women
4 +10 Lawyers and priests wear gowns....
4 +1 ... wear dresses.... devious/scheming/wily
3 +2 as dishonest
3 it is because they are as mendacious as women
4 -2 If lawyers and priests wear robes, it is because they lie as much, if not more, than women.

Discussion

Estelle Demontrond-Box (asker) Oct 23, 2013:
Beaucoup d'air brassé et de condescendance comme d'habitude sur Proz... Merci à tous ceux qui ont apporté des commentaires utiles. Quant aux autres,....
Tony M Oct 23, 2013:
@ Carol Absolutely! And I think that's what I said... all I wanted to emphasize was that the translator's interpretation needs to take into account the cultural background of the original text, and not seek to read it with 'modern' eyes.
I think we're saying exactly the same thing!
Carol Gullidge Oct 23, 2013:
Agree with writeaway on the last point. After all, if translating, for instance, Les Dawson's mother-in-law jokes, would we tone them down to suit a foreign or more modern target audience?
writeaway Oct 23, 2013:
I am 'insinuating' that this cannot be discussed/dissected without seeing it in the time and context it was written. It cannot (or should not) be removed and transposed into a different time or context and can't really be interpreted from our own personal perspective, unless it's just for our own interest.
Tony M Oct 23, 2013:
@ Writeaway What are you trying to insinuate?

It's exactly because of knowing who the author was that I raised the point in the first place.
writeaway Oct 23, 2013:
Guitry is Guitry Read up and discover exactly who he was. Dissecting what someone wrote without knowing who the author is or was is totally pointless imo.
Tony M Oct 23, 2013:
@ Asker While I agree that "misogyny is not the issue" per se, I do think it is vitally important to take this aspect into account when translating — as is, of course, an awareness of the cultural backdrop and Sacha Guitry's work.

The point being, at least in part, that a text may have been written at a time when something was not considered offensive that would be so considered today; and one needs to take into account the 'record' of the writer. For example, one writer 100 years ago might have quite innocently said something that sounds misogynistic today, but wouldn't have raised an eyebrow back then; while a 'known' misogynist like Mr. Guitry could well have set out to shock, or at least jolt, with his deliberate misogyny.
Now of course it can (and should!) be argued that the translator's role is not to 'sanitize' quotations from the past; but at the same time, no translator is an island, and one has to be aware of the way in which present-day readers are going to read ones translation (as distinct from, say, a contemporary translation from the writer's day).
However, all this just to say that I feel it is vital for ones interpretation to be informed by the cultural background.
B D Finch Oct 23, 2013:
@Asker Are you saying that literature is totally value-neutral and the fount of all goodness and wisdom, so it must simply be adored uncritically?
Estelle Demontrond-Box (asker) Oct 23, 2013:
This is a quote from Sacha Guitry, not a song. Thank you all for your help!
Estelle Demontrond-Box (asker) Oct 23, 2013:
Misogyny is not the issue. We are talking literature....
Jean-Claude Gouin Oct 14, 2013:
@ Madame Guilbault 1. ê = ALT 136
2. Je croyais que vous étiez un homme ...
caguilbault Oct 14, 2013:
as deceitful as women... great! I think that in this case, the idea of "deceitfulness" (the deliberate art of concealing the truth) for "etre menteur" (sorry no accent) captures everything... men in robes, lawyers, priests, women... (as well as the irony, of course!)
Carol Gullidge Oct 14, 2013:
'frocks' would work with priests (defrocked or otherwise) but not - sadly - with lawyers. Which is why I opted for "dresses", which I feel captures the humour
Tony M Oct 14, 2013:
@ W/A I do agree, but my only concern is that the word one chooses for 'menteurs' should MISrepresent his mild misogyny; in other words, if he says 'ladies tart themselves up a bit', we don't want to mistranslate that as 'all women are liars'; that was the point I was really trying to make.
As John has identified, the real problem is with 'robes', since the pun simply doesn't work in EN as it does in FR.
writeaway Oct 14, 2013:
Funny is funny Even when it's at someone's expense. Would be a shame to keep Guitry on the shelf just because he's not PC by today's ever-changing standards.
B D Finch Oct 14, 2013:
Misogyny While I think that one can excuse Sasha Guitry for having shared and wittily expressed the prejudices of his time, it does seem strange for a modern woman to "love" a misogynist quotation. Of course, those same prejudices are still common, the difference between now and then is the general awareness of the harm they do.
Arlene Lokomowitz Oct 14, 2013:
I prefer deceitful or perhaps duplicitous. If lawyers and priests wear robes, it is because they are as deceitful as women.
Clompy Oct 14, 2013:
deceiving/two-faced Either of these sound quite nice - "deceiving" sounds more poetic than "deceptive" or "deceitful" to me

Proposed translations

+4
1 hr
Selected

If lawyers and priests wear robes, it is because they lie as skillfully as women

Another variation on the theme

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-10-14 05:07:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

'Artful' is another possibility if you're looking for an adjective to replace 'untruthful'.
Peer comment(s):
agree Mark Bossanyi
2 hrs
thanks Mark
agree Teresa Quinn
3 hrs
thanks Teresa
agree philgoddard : I would say dresses rather than robes.
6 hrs
thanks Phil
agree Helen Hammond
1 day 3 hrs
thanks Helen
neutral writeaway : men also wear robes. gowns is closer to Guitry's French.
9 days
neutral Tony M : Agree with W/A about 'gowns', but am also worried about the causal implication of 'if... because...', which I feel is less strong in FR and riskier in EN
9 days
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I like this option. I thin k that it reflects Guitry's message well. Thank you."
4 hrs

it is because they are as mendacious as women

Another possible option.

Sacha Guitry appears not to have thought too highly of women. I just found the following quote:

"When a man steals your wife there is no better revenge than to let him keep her."
Peer comment(s):
neutral writeaway : Guitry was well-known for his misogynist quips.
3 hrs
I have to confess a gap in my cultural knowledge...
Something went wrong...
+10
4 hrs

Lawyers and priests wear gowns....

I think the hard part to translate actually is "robes," because there is a pun there. A "robe" is both a garment traditionally worn by lawyers and priests, but it also means "dress" in the simple sense of the clothing item women wear. Unlike "regular robes" (i.e. those robes not used by certain professionals) which are generally worn indoors and often in private, "dresses" of course are worn everywhere.

My option to get at both senses of the French term "robe" in English is "gown." It, too, is used in both senses mentioned above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gown

I think all of the options for "menteur" here have merit. I think I'd opt for "lie," because it is a common term in both languages.

So here are some options:
Lawyers and priests wear gowns because they lie just as much as women.
If lawyers and priests wear gowns, that's (it is) because they lie just like (as much as) women.

I'd tend to opt for the simpler version unless there is some need to focus on the logical relations, simply because I don't know that it's generally very important to the meaning to imply that lawyers and priests might not wear gowns (one nuance of "if").
Note from asker:
Thank you for your very useful input!
Peer comment(s):
agree Rachel Ward
16 mins
Thanks, Rachel
agree polyglot45 : they lie as glibly as ( I like the "gowns")
58 mins
Thanks, polyglot45
agree Carol Gullidge : agree with gowns, although I do wonder if - this being a tongue-in-cheek song - you couldn't get away with 'dresses', which emphasises the humour.//You cd be right - it might not be from a song. But in any case, it definitely is meant to be humourous
1 hr
Thanks, Carol. BTW, I'm not sure that this is from a song. Do you have a source for that? I think it's just a quotation or saying....
agree Michael Hariton : Gowns is the happiest solution to the pivotal issue with the proverb-sounding quote. Robes is essentially a faux ami here and doesn't serve the purpose of the saying since it is not gender-specific in English.
1 hr
Thanks, Michael
agree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Lawyers and priests both wear gowns but...; OR Lawyers and priest might wear gowns but...
1 hr
Thanks, Nikki
agree writeaway : Gowns. it's best to reflect Guitry's idea.......
2 hrs
Thanks, writeaway
agree Bertrand Leduc
3 hrs
Thanks, Bertrand
agree Sandra & Kenneth Grossman
5 hrs
Thanks, Sangro
agree Verginia Ophof
11 hrs
Thanks, Verginia
agree Tony M : I have some misgivings about certain of your arguments, but I think 'gown' is indeed the only way to accurately reflect the same pun as in FR. / Fine, wasn't referring to that, just your assertions around 'if' ;-)
9 days
Thanks, Tony. FWIW, I hadn't intended to minimize the issues around cultural awareness that came up in relation to the author's misogyny. Many see the author as a collaborationist, as well, and I was hesitant to get into any of that....
Something went wrong...
+1
8 hrs

... wear dresses.... devious/scheming/wily


the term in question is in fact way over the limit, but I agree with John that "robe" is the trickier term.

This being a song, and assuming that you're hoping to make the whole thing rhyme, then some of the literal sense usually has to give, just as long as you can accurately relay the gist of what is being said. That being the case, I'd translate "robes" as "dresses", as I'm sure that this is the sense of 'robes' that Sacha had in mind, and leave it as a joke - which is what I'm pretty sure was intended. Something along the lines of


'If priests and lawyers wear dresses, it's because they're as wily as
women'

Obviously, nobody would take this literally!


NB, of the above translations, I think I'd probably opt for 'as wily as women' simply for the alliteration. This is a song after all! Failing that, for accuracy, I'd go for 'devious'
Note from asker:
Thank you!
Peer comment(s):
agree Marian Vieyra : Devious as dames?
1 day 5 hrs
Nice one, Marian, I like it :) Thanks!
Something went wrong...
+2
3 hrs
French term (edited): aussi menteurs

as dishonest

I'd love to know exactly what he means by this!
But either way, I think 'dishonest' possibly works well for the first 2 of these categories — and by the sound of it, he's being a bit of a misogynist when it comes to the third!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2013-10-14 13:35:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

To get round the 'robe' issue, I wonder if one could fall back on that delightfully period 'frocks' — no-one wears frocks any more, so in that sense, it is equally applicable (or not!) to both groups of people; and then again, we do talk about priests at least getting 'defrocked', so I think most readers would get the idea.
Note from asker:
Thank you!
Peer comment(s):
agree B D Finch : Interesting that you are the only person so far who has commented on the misogyny!
1 hr
Thanks, B! :-) Indeed... ;-)
agree Helen Shiner : Well, yes, this is what it says, but with you and BD on the misogyny! Unless it is a comment (somehow) on the capacity of gowns to hide "a multitude of sins" as the DM might have it.
3 hrs
Thanks, Helen! That's why I went for 'dishonest', I was thinking of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, trying to present a guilty criminal in the best light, and promising 'pie in the sky when you die' ;-)
Something went wrong...
-2
38 mins

If lawyers and priests wear robes, it is because they lie as much, if not more, than women.

Sacha Guitry is one of my favorite authors ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 heures (2013-10-14 18:02:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Lawyers and priests wear gowns because they lie just as much as women.
If lawyers and priests wear gowns, because they lie just like (as much as) women.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 heures (2013-10-14 18:18:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If lawyers and priests wear gowns, because they lie just like (as much as) women. I should have written: If lawyers and priests wear gowns, it is because they lie just like (as much as) women.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 heures (2013-10-14 18:32:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

'Si les avocats et les curés ont des robes' ... 9 mots.
'If lawyers and priests wear robes, it is because they are as **untruthful** as women.' 15 mots.
Vouliez-vous traduire les 9 premiers motes seulement ou toute
la citation?

Je n'utiliserais pas 'dresses' ou 'frocks' ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 heures (2013-10-14 18:34:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Je n'utiliserais pas 'gowns' non plus ... mais bien 'robes'.
Peer comment(s):
disagree caguilbault : they lie as much (or as well) as women. i do not capture the sense of if not more in the original french
2 hrs
Merci pour votre opinion. Voici mon opinion: J'espère que votre français et votre italien sont meilleurs que votre anglais; They (majuscule), I (majuscule), French (majuscule) ...
neutral Victoria Britten : they lie as much AS, not "than"
3 hrs
Merci Victoria pour votre opinion ...
disagree Tony M : Sorry, but this suggests a causal connection that is not their: lying makes them wear the robes! + VB is right, can't phrase it this way, better: "...as much as, if not more than, women"
9 days
Something went wrong...
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