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Jul 26, 2018 14:13
5 yrs ago
15 viewers *
Spanish term
verdad verdadera
Spanish to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
English of lawyers/procedural law
Good Thursday everyone.
How do you express this concept in English?
“verdad verdadera” (also called “verdad material”) as opposed to “verdad procesal”, as explained here:
Una de las discusiones más recurrentes en el mundo jurídico es cuando hablamos del debido proceso y de su esencia jurídica: “la verdad”. La verdad de un hecho o suceso jurídico es el desarrollo de un comportamiento (conducta) humano en un momento determinado y la cual como actuación del hombre que ha trasgredido un derecho ajeno particular, o, colectivo debe establecerse mediante un proceso reglado que busca la paz social la solución justa al litigio a través de un tercero (el Juez). Sin embargo, la **verdad procesal** que da fundamento a las soluciones en el campo judicial no se identifica la más de las veces con la **verdad material** de los hechos, aunque esté determinada por ellos y sustentada y amparada en las distintas formas probatorias. Esa verdad, que busca una verdadera justicia no debe corresponder a las vivencias emotivas ni intelectuales de los protagonistas, ni a las del Juez y debe fundarse, en cimientos ajenos a las emociones que en palabras del
(…)
En el proceso los hechos deben vaciarse en procedimientos y formas preestablecidas, en medios de prueba5 oportunos, pertinentes y legales que nos conduzcan a la verdad.
Luego, la verdad que es probada con los hechos, es el fundamento de las valoraciones jurídicas que deben hacerse por el operador judicial. Sin ellos, reconvertidos en pruebas, no se podrá justificar una decisión judicial. Generalmente la verdad histórica es distinta a la verdad procesal; y estas dos, a la verdad verdadera (verdad material).
(http://www.inej.edu.ni/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/garantias-...
Many thanks in advance!
How do you express this concept in English?
“verdad verdadera” (also called “verdad material”) as opposed to “verdad procesal”, as explained here:
Una de las discusiones más recurrentes en el mundo jurídico es cuando hablamos del debido proceso y de su esencia jurídica: “la verdad”. La verdad de un hecho o suceso jurídico es el desarrollo de un comportamiento (conducta) humano en un momento determinado y la cual como actuación del hombre que ha trasgredido un derecho ajeno particular, o, colectivo debe establecerse mediante un proceso reglado que busca la paz social la solución justa al litigio a través de un tercero (el Juez). Sin embargo, la **verdad procesal** que da fundamento a las soluciones en el campo judicial no se identifica la más de las veces con la **verdad material** de los hechos, aunque esté determinada por ellos y sustentada y amparada en las distintas formas probatorias. Esa verdad, que busca una verdadera justicia no debe corresponder a las vivencias emotivas ni intelectuales de los protagonistas, ni a las del Juez y debe fundarse, en cimientos ajenos a las emociones que en palabras del
(…)
En el proceso los hechos deben vaciarse en procedimientos y formas preestablecidas, en medios de prueba5 oportunos, pertinentes y legales que nos conduzcan a la verdad.
Luego, la verdad que es probada con los hechos, es el fundamento de las valoraciones jurídicas que deben hacerse por el operador judicial. Sin ellos, reconvertidos en pruebas, no se podrá justificar una decisión judicial. Generalmente la verdad histórica es distinta a la verdad procesal; y estas dos, a la verdad verdadera (verdad material).
(http://www.inej.edu.ni/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/garantias-...
Many thanks in advance!
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +2 | actual truth |
Sandro Tomasi
|
| 4 +1 | substantive truth |
AllegroTrans
|
| 4 | the true truth (or the real truth) |
Ellen Kraus
|
| 2 | (the) whole truth |
neilmac
|
Proposed translations
+2
2 hrs
actual truth
In initial lawyer-client interviews, it is quite common for lawyers to say, “first I’m going to read you the charges and tell you what they’re saying, and then I want you to tell me what actually happened” (or “what really happened”).
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
JohnMcDove
: Vero nihil verius. Nothing is truer than truth. ;-)
2 mins
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Loquens iustitiam adnuntians recta, frater. You speak the truth, brother. (Or something close to that.) Thank you, John.
|
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| agree |
Mónica Hanlan
19 hrs
|
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Thank you, Mónica.
|
2 hrs
Ellen Kraus
Austria
Austria
Specializes in field
Austria
more than thirty years of experience
Native in: German 
Works in: Greek to German, English to German, Greek to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
65
the true truth (or the real truth)
that´s what I found
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Note added at 2 Stunden (2018-07-26 16:56:02 GMT)
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in addition, I´ve come across "the absolute truth" and the "actual truth.
Bueno, suena como verdad porque es racional ¿verdad? Pero, ¿sabes? la "verdad verdadera", es que tú... odias la Navidad, entonces lo que haces es desparramar todos los hechos y se los arruinas a todos los demás.
Well, it sounds like the truth cause it's so rational, right, but, you know, the true truth is that you just... you hate Christmas, so you just spout out all these facts and you ruin it for everyone else.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 Stunden (2018-07-26 16:56:02 GMT)
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in addition, I´ve come across "the absolute truth" and the "actual truth.
Bueno, suena como verdad porque es racional ¿verdad? Pero, ¿sabes? la "verdad verdadera", es que tú... odias la Navidad, entonces lo que haces es desparramar todos los hechos y se los arruinas a todos los demás.
Well, it sounds like the truth cause it's so rational, right, but, you know, the true truth is that you just... you hate Christmas, so you just spout out all these facts and you ruin it for everyone else.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: These don't work in legal parlance, and "true truth" is utter doublespeak; as for your "explanation" (which sounds like street talk) what has this to do with procedural law??
1 hr
|
20 hrs
(the) whole truth
As in sworn testimony, perhaps?
Low confidence, FWIW.
Low confidence, FWIW.
Example sentence:
...the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: Problem is we are not dealing with the term as used in the witness oath
4 hrs
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That's why I added "FWIW"....
|
+1
6 hrs
AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Sensible solutions
Native in: English (Variant: Wessexois) 
Works in: French to English, English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
1668
substantive truth
I believe this is the term applied in legal theory and caselaw.
Formal Legal Truth and Substantive Truth in Judicial Fact-Finding - jstor
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3505142
by RS Summers - 1999 - Cited by 57 - Related articles
ABSTRACT. Truth is a fundamental objective of adjudicative processes; ideally,. 'substantive' as distinct from 'formal legal' truth. But problems of evidence, for.
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Note added at 6 hrs (2018-07-26 20:14:12 GMT)
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The Trial on Trial: Truth and due process
https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1841134422
Antony Duff, Lindsay Farmer, Sandra Marshall - 2004 - Law
Summers, for example, distinguishes between the actual truth, which he calls the 'substantive truth', and the 'formal legal truth', which is 'whatever is found as ...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 20 hrs (2018-07-28 10:55:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Scores of examples on the web:
Prospective Analysis and Establishing Substantive Truth in Review of ...
https://dspace.library.uu.nl/handle/1874/301860
by A Gerbrandy - 2014 - Related articles
Prospective Analysis and Establishing Substantive Truth in Review of Merger Decisions in Court ... (2014) Netherlands Administrative Law Library, volume 2014.
[DOC]Download [34.85 KB]
https://wp.bridgewater.edu/.../Final-Draft-Epistemology-and-...
Assessing the Use of Justified True Belief by the United States Judicial System and the Epistemological Disparity between Substantive Truth and Legal Verdicts.
The Theory and Development of Common-Law Actions
https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1893122255
Thomas A. Street - 1999 - Law
Nor does this principle impeach the idea elsewhere brought out, that in the development of early law, form is the chief means by which substantive truth is first ...
truth and impartiality in criminal process - HeinOnline
heinonline.org/hol-cgi-bin/get_pdf.cgi?handle=hein.journals/jcontemlaw7...5
by BM Zupancic - 1982 - Cited by 16 - Related articles
If the essence of substantive criminal law lies in the criteria of guilt and innocence ...... clarative since procedure does not affect the substantive truth. In the latter
Formal Legal Truth and Substantive Truth in Judicial Fact-Finding - jstor
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3505142
by RS Summers - 1999 - Cited by 57 - Related articles
ABSTRACT. Truth is a fundamental objective of adjudicative processes; ideally,. 'substantive' as distinct from 'formal legal' truth. But problems of evidence, for.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2018-07-26 20:14:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The Trial on Trial: Truth and due process
https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1841134422
Antony Duff, Lindsay Farmer, Sandra Marshall - 2004 - Law
Summers, for example, distinguishes between the actual truth, which he calls the 'substantive truth', and the 'formal legal truth', which is 'whatever is found as ...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 20 hrs (2018-07-28 10:55:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Scores of examples on the web:
Prospective Analysis and Establishing Substantive Truth in Review of ...
https://dspace.library.uu.nl/handle/1874/301860
by A Gerbrandy - 2014 - Related articles
Prospective Analysis and Establishing Substantive Truth in Review of Merger Decisions in Court ... (2014) Netherlands Administrative Law Library, volume 2014.
[DOC]Download [34.85 KB]
https://wp.bridgewater.edu/.../Final-Draft-Epistemology-and-...
Assessing the Use of Justified True Belief by the United States Judicial System and the Epistemological Disparity between Substantive Truth and Legal Verdicts.
The Theory and Development of Common-Law Actions
https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1893122255
Thomas A. Street - 1999 - Law
Nor does this principle impeach the idea elsewhere brought out, that in the development of early law, form is the chief means by which substantive truth is first ...
truth and impartiality in criminal process - HeinOnline
heinonline.org/hol-cgi-bin/get_pdf.cgi?handle=hein.journals/jcontemlaw7...5
by BM Zupancic - 1982 - Cited by 16 - Related articles
If the essence of substantive criminal law lies in the criteria of guilt and innocence ...... clarative since procedure does not affect the substantive truth. In the latter
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Sandro Tomasi
: Interesting. Summers uses the term, others quote him. In your second link, the authors say, “actual truth, which he [Summers] calls the ‘substantive truth’”. A quick search yielded the term in relation to deflationism.
18 hrs
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Thanks. I have certainly heard this term used by lawyers.
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Discussion
>>In fairness to Google, it can yield excellent info when used selectively and carefully.
Your advice?
++And what do you recommend?
How can it be done, in your opinion?
Thank you
It’s not easy to decide, is it?
So, for example, the original uses verdad verdadera in juxtaposition to verdad procesal. Allegro found an author that uses “substantive truth” in contrast with “formal legal truth,” which is stylistically similar to the original. AFAIK, Google cannot find terms under such parameters.
But I think that it is a good indication when the people who use such terms know what they are talking about.
This time I used “real truth”; here are some of the references included in those Google hits:
"Truth," in the context of an adversary trial, is thus, the inferences of ultimate historical fact and liability that the fact-finder draws from the "evidence" that the adversaries help to fashion. How closely such "truth" comports with the "real truth," whatever that might be, is indeterminable.
(https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewconten...
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Why would they prefer a system whose objective is to generate "trial truth" rather than real truth,9 procedural justice rather than substantive justice?' This article speculates about some possible solutions to these puzzles. People might adhere to adversarialism for several reasons.
(…)
We carry his teachings down to the present day. In our bones, we know that only a system that empowers lawyers can discover the real truth about what actually happened when the crime was committed-who done it and why.
(http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=25...
Perhaps asker you could share with us what you used in the end
I have found the following:
(1) All of the terms suggested here (actual/factual/real/substantive/true truth) are actually used by lawyers and legal scholars;
(2) There is no generally accepted term to express this concept in English;
(3) Regarding frequency of use, “real truth” is far more common than the others, according to Google:
define: “real truth” Fact-Finding
Cerca de 933,000 resultados (0.46 segundos)
define: “real truth” Fact-Finding law justice
Cerca de 417,000 resultados (0.62 segundos)
So, I will leave up to you to decide the winner of this discussion.
Many thanks again
I had thought of “material truth” and “real truth”, but also thought that perhaps there is some other term, and decided to ask.