| বিষয়ের পেজ: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | About the constant AI training job posts. থ্রেড পোস্টার: Javi Tazinafo
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| They are not a tool. They are already replacing us. | Oct 10, 2024 |
In my language pairs (IT-EN), many end clients are directly using AI and completely cutting out translators and agencies. It is not just a "tool" (which I won't use unless the job specifies it. Correcting AI or MT translation takes me MORE time than just translating).
I know many agencies that have gone out of business, and tons of translators who've moved on to other fields.
| | | | Baran Keki 
তুরস্ক
Local time: 16:49
সদস্য
ইংরেজি থেকে তুর্কি
Miranda Drew wrote:
In my language pairs (IT-EN), many end clients are directly using AI and completely cutting out translators and agencies. It is not just a "tool" (which I won't use unless the job specifies it. Correcting AI or MT translation takes me MORE time than just translating).
I know many agencies that have gone out of business, and tons of translators who've moved on to other fields.
One IT-EN translator I know in these forums has been so busy with work since the beginning of this year that he stopped posting here and some people actually thought he died in his flat in London.
Or it could be that AI replaced him, and he got turned into some kind of robotic being and lost his human qualities.
| | | | Javi Tazinafo
ব্রাজিল
Local time: 10:49
2010 থেকে সদস্য
ইংরেজি থেকে পর্তুগিজ
TOPIC STARTER | Excited to bounce some ideas | Oct 10, 2024 |
Monica Oliveira wrote:
Lingua 5B wrote:
Nice idea for them to fill out a form, but they will lie in the form just to get a ton of responses and fill out their database.
Thank you!
It is a misconception that some companies just want to "fill out their database." How good is a database filled with people who will not respond to their emails or don't want to work with them. Also, why to spend time and money to recruit and fill a database without a purpose? You can be sure that if a company is asking you to complete forms and go through a qualification process they have a purpose and see the need in their business pipeline.
Here is a very common scenario in the localization industry:
Companies that are ISO certified or have clients that are ISO certified cannot assign a project to someone that has not gone through a process that meet ISO standards. They would either loose their certification or the client. Thus, these companies, when they expect or plan for growth in their business, they will recruit proactively to be able to have vetted professionals ready to take on projects. They cannot tell the professionals they are recruiting when or even if a project will actually happen and what the jobs look like because they don't know precisely yet, just have an idea what it would be. Sometimes they won't win the business, but if they do win the business they need to be prepared.
From the professional point of view, being in the database of companies like these is few steps closer to good jobs and likely to a life-long client. Service providers need to invest in leads, sometimes they convert into real business and some don't.
Thank you! This is getting interesting, I loved to know about the revamped job posting. I'll respond to all points later (or tomorrow).
| | | | | AI Impacting jobs | Oct 10, 2024 |
Miranda Drew wrote:
In my language pairs (IT-EN), many end clients are directly using AI and completely cutting out translators and agencies. It is not just a "tool" (which I won't use unless the job specifies it. Correcting AI or MT translation takes me MORE time than just translating).
I know many agencies that have gone out of business, and tons of translators who've moved on to other fields.
Thanks for your input, Miranda!
This is what our members who want access to the AI jobs are telling us and they want to be aware of the changes and opportunities that require their skills. Basically, if there are no traditional translation jobs and translators need to do something else what could it be?
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| Not talking about specific cases | Oct 10, 2024 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
I am not sure you understood me. They provide a public job description with full details and specs. But when I contact them and ask for more details about the job, they don’t want to or can’t provide any. They ignore and fully disregard my questions about the said job. Is this supposed to be a professional behavior and correspondence?
How am I supposed to make an informed decision about whether to fill out their form or not if they blatantly ignore my job-related questions?
[Edited at 2024-10-10 08:24 GMT]
I didn't mean to address the specific cases you have encountered, just offered a different perspective with a scenario that I know is common in the industry.
| | | | | Will delete the off topic posts | Oct 10, 2024 |
I triggered a discussion that doesn't belong here. I'm sorry. I deleted my comment and the responses to it. I'd like to stay focused and this discussion can easily suck the air of the purpose of this forum initiated by Javi. Thanks!
| | | | Lieven Malaise
বেলজিয়াম
Local time: 14:49
2020 থেকে সদস্য
ফেঞ্চ/ফরাসি থেকে ডাচ
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What was off-topic about you saying that we should approach cheap(er) AI/MT jobs with less care than better paid conventional translation jobs?
I really don't agree with you deleting these posts. It makes no sense.
| | | | ibz
Local time: 14:49
ইংরেজি থেকে জার্মান
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| About deleting posts | Oct 10, 2024 |
I don’t agree with deleting these posts either. They were relevant and on topic. Please un-delete them. Thank you!
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| The topic is how to handle AI job posts in the ProZ.com board | Oct 10, 2024 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
What was off-topic about you saying that we should approach cheap(er) AI/MT jobs with less care than better paid conventional translation jobs?
I really don't agree with you deleting these posts. It makes no sense.
The topic is
How can ProZ.com serve the members who are against these job posts and want them banned, and the members who see the language related AI jobs an opportunity to expand the services they offer, in face of a technology that is changing the industry, therefore want to see these jobs on the board?
You should approach any job with the care you agree with your client and I didn't say anything different than that. I'm sorry if it was not clear.
What I meant was that the client request and expectation is what dictates the level of effort a professional puts into a job. If the client wants you to go over the text and correct the grammar errors, you don't need to transform the translation into a piece of human translation; actually you shouldn't because it was not what the client asked for. If, hypothetically, the client asks you to correct the grammar errors and you deliver a text with no grammar error, you met your client's expectations. You may think it could be better, but the client doesn't want what you think it is better, they want a text with no grammar error.
My comment had nothing to do with the topic and I apologize to Javi.
| | | | | Anything but that | Oct 11, 2024 |
Monica Oliveira wrote:
This is what our members who want access to the AI jobs are telling us and they want to be aware of the changes and opportunities that require their skills. Basically, if there are no traditional translation jobs and translators need to do something else what could it be?
I will never be interested in being paid peanuts to "correct" crap AI translation that will replace us. And I repeat my point of view that "AI training" has NOTHING to do with translation. What else could we do? Many translators I know are going into different fields. I went back to teaching. I am aware of the changes in the market, but AI training will never be an "opportunity" for me, it's only slavery.
Everyone is absolutely free to accept any type of job they want. But I am sick of these jobs being spammed everywhere to me (a professional with more than 20 years' experience), and the people offering them acting like they are translation jobs. They arent.
| | | | Javi Tazinafo
ব্রাজিল
Local time: 10:49
2010 থেকে সদস্য
ইংরেজি থেকে পর্তুগিজ
TOPIC STARTER | Let's all just breathe | Oct 11, 2024 |
Monica Oliveira wrote:
Lieven Malaise wrote:
What was off-topic about you saying that we should approach cheap(er) AI/MT jobs with less care than better paid conventional translation jobs?
I really don't agree with you deleting these posts. It makes no sense.
The topic is
How can ProZ.com serve the members who are against these job posts and want them banned, and the members who see the language related AI jobs an opportunity to expand the services they offer, in face of a technology that is changing the industry, therefore want to see these jobs on the board?
You should approach any job with the care you agree with your client and I didn't say anything different than that. I'm sorry if it was not clear.
What I meant was that the client request and expectation is what dictates the level of effort a professional puts into a job. If the client wants you to go over the text and correct the grammar errors, you don't need to transform the translation into a piece of human translation; actually you shouldn't because it was not what the client asked for. If, hypothetically, the client asks you to correct the grammar errors and you deliver a text with no grammar error, you met your client's expectations. You may think it could be better, but the client doesn't want what you think it is better, they want a text with no grammar error.
My comment had nothing to do with the topic and I apologize to Javi.
I don't think you did anything wrong, Monica.
Guys, let's focus. We have site staff joining our conversation to take in ideas, offer points of view and bring our concerns to her team. That's the best we could have hoped for for this thread. Let's show them that we are not just an angry mob, that we can be pleased and that we can be listened to. There are a lot of unreasonable people out there. Let's show ProZ that they would rather deal with us then with them. Someone dropped the "So You're Saying" bomb on this thread and derailed the conversation. Nothing productive has ever happened after a SYS bomb, so let's not do that kind of thing again. Eye on the ball.
About AI training on this site, AI training is definitely not translation, therefore it shouldn't be on the site. That's true, but as Monica pointed out (correct me if I'm wrong), they have members that are interested in it. They should not be, but they are. It is unprofessional, but they don't care. They see it as opportunities, even though they're not. (Except the ones that are real translators but are desperate because they ran out of work, those are victims.) That means they have to cater to them too, so banning AI Training, although ideal, would not be realistic. That does not make me happy either, but I get it. And it's ironic that this is happening at a place called ProZ, but here we are. But that is why I suggested a positive reinforcement solution. I think something to that effect is the way to go.
To the point about agencies using fake jobs to fill up their database, I think that's a misunderstanding. There is an issue where some people post fake jobs, but not to fill out their database, but to actually steal CVs and personal data to try and run scams later. That happens, but I don't think ProZ can do much other than try to ban fake accounts and fake posts, but that's off topic.
Now let me go back and address Monica's points.
About post-editing of MT and AI, the points raised about adapting to them and how they're actually pretty doable, well, sometimes they are pretty doable at a reasonable pace that you wouldn't necessarily be at a loss (other times, MT would be so bad that it would be near unusable, but you would still earn a MTPE rate), but the real point is that post-editing is a use of technology specifically for saving money on human labor. It does not do anything else. AI and MT *can* be used as tools to help us in our work - as is the case when you're paid for translation but there are MT and AI suggestions at the side - but often they are used as tools to just cheapen human labor. That is not something you want to adapt to, you have to fight it, otherwise you just keep adapting to worse and worse things until you're out of work for good. So you can see how suggesting people to adapt to this can piss them off. Although I know Monica didn't mean it like *hey, just adapt to it and move on*, we can adapt to reality to a degree, but we should still fight automation as a matter of principle. If the Economy is supposed to be all about what people do with their money, what good is automation if it makes people have less and less work and make less and less money? That is why ProZ should have a more hands-on approach on this matter. If you just let the market do its natural thing, it's going to screw us.
As for the point raised about negotiation: to a degree, yes, it is expected that agencies negotiate a better rate for them and we negotiate a better one for us. But them getting into it with an unreasonably low rate upfront is unfair, because they know there is enough people around that they can just name any rate, as miniscule as it is, and someone is going to take it. That happens because the worker is the weakest link of capitalism. The more one needs money the less bargaining leverage they have, and the more they're willing to take just any offer. It is a fundamental flaw of capitalism. The only real protections we have as workers are labor laws, like minimum wage, social security, and unions for collective bargaining. Since we, translators, are an international community of freelancers, all we have for this is ProZ. Now, granted that ProZ is not a government agency or a union, but it is a paid platform. It is our source of representation, and to protect us, there should be some rules and incentive structures in place. This is all an argument as to why ProZ can and should incentivize agencies to show better willingness to pay fairly. It's a touchy idea, but there *is* a sweet spot where ProZ can help protect our industry without being heavy-handed.
About the job post form being revamped, that is awesome! Please bring our concerns to your team. There should be AI Training in the listed services menu, so that they can post it as AI training and we can untick AI training from our notifications and never receive them. But this will only work if the form is mandatory. There shouldn't be plain-text posts anymore. Job posts relevance has taken a big hit throughout the years, to a degree where I even stopped looking at them for a while, and I think that's on of the reasons.
In conclusion, I think the new job form would be great for us to filter AI crap out from our own view, and positive reinforcement in the form of a Fair Market seal would be an incredible win for us all in terms of establishing better rates and business practices, but I'm also willing to hear some more ideas.
Establishing a minimum rate for the Fair Marketing seal wouldn't be that hard, because it is based on a rate that ensures decent middle-class living for qualified work, instead of what the market wants to pay. This isn't controversial. Maybe there could be some kind of formula that determined that, or maybe translators could opt into having their minimum rates from their profiles used to help calculate a fair Market minimum for their country. (I'm not set on how this would work, so let me know what you think.) I understand ProZ has an incentive to take a hands-off approach as much as possible, but if you do that and let the market decide, workers get screwed. That's what always happens. And the Fair Market seal should be just an incentive, enough so that companies that don't have the mentality of wanting to engage in it just keep posting abusive jobs, but the ones that have it in them will be incentivized to post fair jobs. Ideally, they will notice how they get better translators and a better experience in general if they keep things fair and stay that way in the long term. The Fair Market seal should be per post, not per company profile, because we want to incentivize every instance of fair mentality, not just split companies into two categories.
Let me know your thoughts. Eye on the ball, PLEASE.
| | | | | I refuse to take on those jobs | Oct 12, 2024 |
and I think they shouldn't be allowed here.
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Lieven Malaise
বেলজিয়াম
Local time: 14:49
2020 থেকে সদস্য
ফেঞ্চ/ফরাসি থেকে ডাচ
+ ...
Javi Tazinafo wrote:
I don't think you did anything wrong, Monica.
Indeed, she didn't. She just expressed her opinion and me and a few others reacted to it. That's what these forums should be all about instead of nagging about on- or off-topic. I didn't agree with her opinion, but it was intersting to discuss it, so it's a shame that it has been censored.
But okay, on-topic: I think the topic is boring as hell: translators trying to fight the unfightable is immensely sad and utterly useless. Give me one example in history of technical developments that have been stopped by people scared of losing their income. I'll wait.
No, as translators we have no choice but to adapt to the changes in our industry, unless you want to prematurely end your career or just mess around a little longer part-time. And yes, one day we possibly won't be necessary any longer. But you know what? So what!? Nothing lasts forever.
And adapting and still going strong is perfectly possible: I prove it every single day. Don't come and tell me I must be an exception. I won't believe a word of it. I've been hearing translators complain as early as the first years two thousand, at the very beginning of my translation career (inhouse at the time, another point an awful lot of translators don't seem to understand the importance of).
What do you need as a succesful freelance translator?
1) The necessary talent and feeling for languages.
2) Commercial feeling
3) Flexibility and adaptibility
4) Common sense
5) Experience
The problem is not AI, but our industry being flooded by translators that are missing one or more of the points above.
I know this opinion also is very much up to debate, but the last 5 years not a single thing has happened to prove me wrong, so I'm going to stick to it for now.
| | | | Javi Tazinafo
ব্রাজিল
Local time: 10:49
2010 থেকে সদস্য
ইংরেজি থেকে পর্তুগিজ
TOPIC STARTER | We DO have a choice | Oct 14, 2024 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
Javi Tazinafo wrote:
I don't think you did anything wrong, Monica.
Indeed, she didn't. She just expressed her opinion and me and a few others reacted to it. That's what these forums should be all about instead of nagging about on- or off-topic. I didn't agree with her opinion, but it was intersting to discuss it, so it's a shame that it has been censored.
But okay, on-topic: I think the topic is boring as hell: translators trying to fight the unfightable is immensely sad and utterly useless. Give me one example in history of technical developments that have been stopped by people scared of losing their income. I'll wait.
No, as translators we have no choice but to adapt to the changes in our industry, unless you want to prematurely end your career or just mess around a little longer part-time. And yes, one day we possibly won't be necessary any longer. But you know what? So what!? Nothing lasts forever.
And adapting and still going strong is perfectly possible: I prove it every single day. Don't come and tell me I must be an exception. I won't believe a word of it. I've been hearing translators complain as early as the first years two thousand, at the very beginning of my translation career (inhouse at the time, another point an awful lot of translators don't seem to understand the importance of).
What do you need as a succesful freelance translator?
1) The necessary talent and feeling for languages.
2) Commercial feeling
3) Flexibility and adaptibility
4) Common sense
5) Experience
The problem is not AI, but our industry being flooded by translators that are missing one or more of the points above.
I know this opinion also is very much up to debate, but the last 5 years not a single thing has happened to prove me wrong, so I'm going to stick to it for now.
I agree that our industry has been flooded by people who either are just gig workers that don't take translation as seriously as us, or they're real translators but with a terrible idea of how to freelance, and that hurts us all. Now that AI has come, most of the same people are jumping into AI training "opportunities", but that's hurting us all by driving down human labor prices and demand even more.
Those are two different threats now coming together, and it's true that we cannot stop this, but maybe we can open a lane just for us, the serious ones, in this market. Because flexibility and adaptability are great skills, but without a red line too, you're destined to become part of the flood sooner or later. Part of the problem. The ones you yourself are complaining about right here. Unless you leave Translation and go do something else, which isn't an option for everybody. I for one am 36 years old, and I have been doing this full time for 15 years now. Do the math, you'll see this is all I have.
With the right incentive structure, some companies that think much like we do will also defy the cheapening trend, and they will stick with us in our Lane. Do you not think it's possible?
| | | | ibz
Local time: 14:49
ইংরেজি থেকে জার্মান
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We certainly have to adapt to keep going. When I started out, there was no internet and we still used to send floppy disk by snail mail (anyone remembers?). So there have been huge changes, not only in our profession but everywhere. Not adapting is no option. But you can still decide where you yourself draw the red line. (Maybe by refusing to consider AI training jobs as translation ...)
Most important, in my opinion, is to not lower your standards, to keep delivering outstanding w... See more We certainly have to adapt to keep going. When I started out, there was no internet and we still used to send floppy disk by snail mail (anyone remembers?). So there have been huge changes, not only in our profession but everywhere. Not adapting is no option. But you can still decide where you yourself draw the red line. (Maybe by refusing to consider AI training jobs as translation ...)
Most important, in my opinion, is to not lower your standards, to keep delivering outstanding work and thereby to prove to your clients that human translation is worth its price. I agree with Lieven's six criteria and they have been working for me as well for a long time.
Setting a minimum price seems difficult to me as a word price that is ok for someone from a country where wages and livings costs are quite low is not acceptable at all for someone from a high-price country. How do you want to solve this problem?
Edited for typo
[Edited at 2024-10-14 19:11 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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