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經典誤譯
Thread poster: jyuan_us
ysun
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常凯申 Jun 6, 2009

jyuan_us wrote:

最近有人在發表的文章中因為不認識一個中國名人的英文﹐按照音譯原則﹐很規範地翻譯成了常凯申。

我沒仔細看原文﹐據說譯者是中國數一數二的牛笑的系主任﹐教授﹐博導。

那翻译为什么不把那名字译成“常凯胜”(经常凯旋胜利)? 那名人若地下有知,说不定会骂那翻译“X 希匹”。:D


 
nigerose
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惨不忍睹 Jun 6, 2009

蒋介石成了“常凯申” ——新语丝网友揭清华一史学教授新书误译惨不忍睹 - [教育与学术]

http://wlcguide.blogbus.com/logs/40376930.html


 
Katrin Koehler (X)
Katrin Koehler (X)
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不知轻重 Jun 6, 2009

jyuan_us wrote:
Katrin Koehler wrote:

The topic of this thread should be "Classical Wrong Translations," as the headline states. But I am not of the opinion that "生命中不可承受之轻 (The Unbearable Lightness of Being)" should be a wrong translation. It is just an unfamiliar translation for some Chinese. The translation can become familiar to Chinese readers if they come behind the ideas of "the Lightness of Being" and "the Heaviness of Being," that is, when they get used to Western philosophy like they do with Buddhism after centuries and centuries. Then, Kundera's "生命中不可承受之轻" might be easier to understand for Chinese than Proust's "追忆逝水年华," I guess.



Learning new philosophy, ideas and concepts from other cultures happens naturally. You cannot force people to accept a poorly translated word, if not a totally wrong translation. When there are better and more accurate Chinese words to choose, we shouldn't wait for centuries and centures for people to get used to the poorly translated terms.

We see too many cases in which the readers are "conditioned" to poor translation. This at least is not a good thing. Translators are supposed to give good translations in the first place instead of pouring all those bad translations into publications.

不可承受之轻 is just weird, it is like seeing a worm from inside the bread you are eating. I don't mean it is disgusting, it is just not very pleasant.


鳩摩羅什 came to China during the last half of the fourth century and he translated "Avalokitasvara" into Chinese as "观世音." This name stays so long as Chinese buddhists read and understand his translation. However, Xuanzhang was of another opinion when he came back from India and started to translate the sutras he brought with him. Xuanzhang argued that "Avalokita" means "to discern" and it is all right to translate this part of the combination of "Avalokitasvara" as "观." He argued further that "isvara" means "the leading opinion of all beings" and translated this part of the combination as "自在." Anyway, it is proved that "isvara" means the same thing as "the popular voice" and both translations "观自在" and "观世音" are correct. For centuries and centuries, Chinese people take both names for the one and the same thing. This doesn't mean that it took centuries for Chinese to get used to the buddhist ideas. Both translations have been existent and understood.

When I saw your criticism about the book title "恶之花生命中不能承受之轻," I thought it could be a book title, instead of two book titles because there isn't a separator between "恶之花" and "生命中不能承受之轻." So, "恶之花生 (Evil's peanut[s])" "命中 (hit straight [into])" "不能承受之轻 ([the] unbearable lightness)." Now, we concentrate on the idea of "the unbearable lightness."

Our problem lies in the understanding of the "轻 lightness." As a contrast to the "lightness," we have the idea of "heaviness 重." When Chinese say "不知轻重," they don't mean to say that a person doesn't know what is lightness and what is heaviness. Instead, they mean to say that a person doesn't perceive the heaviness at others. So, when they say "轻重" they don't mean "lightness and heaviness," instead, they mean actually "重" or "沉重," that is, "heaviness."

With the reasoning above, isn't it obvious that the expression "生命中不可承受之轻" could mean "the unbearable heaviness of being"? In Kundera's novel, it does mean that way!

Surely, you can have "轻" in contrast to "重" or "轻松" to "沉重," but they mean the one and the same thing in such a context like "不知轻重" or "生命中不可承受之轻."

BTW, I wouldn't mix up "生命 (life; being)" with "生活 (living)." There is a difference between "making a life" and "making a living." You can make a living while losing your life, but you won't lose your living while making a life.

For me, a Chinese learner, book titles like "恶之花" and "生命中不可承受之轻" are perfectly understandable. They are not wrong translations at all. They are not weird, but alienating.* They are translations which can be discussed like "观世音" and "观自在" which denote the one and the same bodhisattva.

* For an understanding of the "Alienation Effect" please refer to my next post and to the "Distancing Effect" entry in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alienation_effect

[Edited at 2009-06-06 07:54 GMT]


 
Katrin Koehler (X)
Katrin Koehler (X)
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Translation with a distancing effect [Alienation Effect] Jun 6, 2009

In dramaturgy, there is a technique to achieve an alienation effect for the audience not to identify itself with the characters. This happens sometime in translation, too. "生命中不可承受之轻" is a very good example for the distancing effect. Since people would most probably stop to think twice or even thrice about what it could be meant by "生命中不可承受之轻 the unbearable lightness of being," they wouldn't identify themselves with the characters in the novel and think deeper... See more
In dramaturgy, there is a technique to achieve an alienation effect for the audience not to identify itself with the characters. This happens sometime in translation, too. "生命中不可承受之轻" is a very good example for the distancing effect. Since people would most probably stop to think twice or even thrice about what it could be meant by "生命中不可承受之轻 the unbearable lightness of being," they wouldn't identify themselves with the characters in the novel and think deeper into the philosophical theme of the novel.

Honestly, it is not only 99.99% Chinese natives would have difficulty to understand what "the unbearable lightness of being" means, most people in Europe or in America would have the same difficulty - even the Czechs who read the original book title - if they didn't come to the idea of alienating themselves from the story/novel itself.

For this very one reason, I consider the book title properly translated into Chinese as "生命中不可承受之轻."
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chica nueva
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《生命无法承受之轻》;Romanian transformation Jun 6, 2009

《生命无法承受之轻》怎么样
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I91at-YcBgk
The Unbearable Lightness of Being 布拉格之戀 -
... See more
《生命无法承受之轻》怎么样
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I91at-YcBgk
The Unbearable Lightness of Being 布拉格之戀 - 蘇軍入侵布拉格

http://www.blinkx.com/video/romania-city-of-timisoara-a-paradise-for-italian-investors/ygMfUfXR6BRziVLAf9CRzQ
A dramatic boom in the real estate market has transformed Timisoara ...
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ysun
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轻与重 Jun 6, 2009

Katrin Koehler wrote:

Our problem lies in the understanding of the "轻 lightness." As a contrast to the "lightness," we have the idea of "heaviness 重." When Chinese say "不知轻重," they don't mean to say that a person doesn't know what is lightness and what is heaviness. Instead, they mean to say that a person doesn't perceive the heaviness at others. So, when they say "轻重" they don't mean "lightness and heaviness," instead, they mean actually "重" or "沉重," that is, "heaviness."

I am sorry to say that your understating of "不知轻重" is incorrect. When Chinese people say "不知轻重", they don't mean to say that “a person doesn't perceive the heaviness at others”, as you mentioned. "不知轻重" basically means not knowing the proper way to act. For example, “此人说话不知轻重" means “this guy doesn’t know the proper way to talk”; and “他不知轻重" could mean “he doesn't behave properly”. "不知轻重" is a derogatory term in Chinese. Please refer to http://cy.5156edu.com/html4/475.html

If the character "轻" is used alone, it is not a noun and it could have a lot of meanings. If you look up the character "轻" in a Chinese-English dictionary, you will find that the character itself may be used as an adjective, an adverb or a verb, but not as a noun. If you want to use "轻" as a noun, you need to add something to it based on its context, for example, 轻松, 轻率, 轻盈 and the like. Obviously, "轻" was used by the translator as a noun in "生命中不可承受之轻". That’s one of the reasons why I said the translation of this tile was very poor.

You have already known that "轻" was translated from “lightness”. That’s why you think "生命中不可承受之轻" is perfectly understandable. However, most Chinese readers who have not read the original version or English version of this book would not know what "轻" stands for in this title. In other words, the Chinese readers may not perceive "轻" as “lightness”. That’s another reason why I said the translation of this tile was very poor.

By the way, I totally agree that the title "追忆逝水年华" is elegantly translated. However, "生命中不可承受之轻" is not comparable with it in any aspect.

[Edited at 2009-06-07 14:26 GMT]


 
jyuan_us
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Classical, mistranslation Jun 6, 2009

Katrin Koehler wrote:

The topic of this thread should be "Classical Wrong Translations," as the headline states. But I am not of the opinion that "生命中不可承受之轻 (The Unbearable Lightness of Being)" should be a wrong translation.


I'm neither in a position nor interested in deciding what kinds of mistranslation are "classical". Something sounds "Classical" to you might not be classical to me at all. There are many degrees of "classicalness" between being very classical and not classical at all. It is up to the postors' and the readers' judgement.

ALSO, there is no clearcut defination FOR 誤譯 either. Translating "east" into " west" is a 誤譯; translating a deer into a horse is a 誤譯. But a slight ambiguity is also a 誤譯 to me.

It is all up to you.

[Edited at 2009-06-06 23:29 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-06-06 23:29 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-06-07 03:08 GMT]


 
Katrin Koehler (X)
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How to prove the appropriateness of a translation? Jun 7, 2009

jyuan_us wrote:
Katrin Koehler wrote:

The topic of this thread should be "Classical Wrong Translations," as the headline states. But I am not of the opinion that "生命中不可承受之轻 (The Unbearable Lightness of Being)" should be a wrong translation.


I'm neither in a position nor interested in deciding what kinds of mistranslation are "classical". Something sounds "Classical" to you might not be classical to me at all. There are many degrees of "classicalness" between being very classical and not classical at all. It is up to the postors' and the readers' judgement.

ALSO, there is no clearcut defination FOR 誤譯 either. Translating "east" into " west" is a 誤譯; translating a deer into a horse is a 誤譯. But a light ambiguity is also a 誤譯 to me.

It is all up to you.


Great! The topic of this thread, which was started by you, reads "Classical Mistranslation[s]" and you just told us now that you are neither in a position nor interested in deciding what kinds of mistranslation are "classical."

Should everything be up to the posters' and the readers' judgement, it would be exactly what Kundera says in his non-fiction work, The Art of the Novel, that the reader's imagination automatically completes the writer's vision. Then, it would be up to the readers to decide whether they understand what it means with a book titled "The Unbearable Lightness of Being."

Now, so far I know, there are two versions of this work of Kundera's published in Chinese: 《生命中不可承受之轻》 translated by Han Shaogong in 1985 and 《不能承受的生命之轻》 translated by Xu Jun some time later. Both of them are popular among Chinese readers. Let's say, if 99.99% of Chinese natives wouldn't take both book titles as understandable and only 0.01% would have bought a copy of any one of these versions, there could be around 12 million copies sold in China. Or, let's take the half or the three quarters, that would be 4 to 6 million copies - an amazing popularity of an "improper" translation of a book title! I would wonder what if this one of Kundera's works should be titled flattly 《布拉格之恋》(Love in/of/for Prag)!

I agree with you that there is no clearcut definition for 误译 (mistranslation; wrong translation; false translation), for least our clients would ask us to pay them for anything they consider to be ambiguous or wrong, instead of paying us for what we translate with our best effort. Or, maybe, we can quote something like http://cy.5156edu.com/html4/475.html refered to by ysun to bluff our clients and get our pay? I say "bluff," because if we take a closer look at the explanation of the term "不知轻重," we find a funny example quoted by the author: "例子:婆子们~,说是这两日有些病,恐不能就好,到这里问大夫。(清‧曹雪芹《红楼梦》第一0九回)"

Crystal, people shall not translate "East" for "West" or a "deer" for a "horse," but they bluff often when they are in a power position to make others following them in calling a deer a horse. That's the way how people get rid of opinions not in line with their own.

My last question would be: Should 《生命中不可承受之轻》 or 《不能承受的生命之轻》 be improper in Chinese, why the publishers publish this work of Kundera's in such titles and why Chinese readers who buy and read this work seem not to have a problem of underderstanding what it means by the "轻 (lightness)" in the book title? I cannot imagine that they just pretend that they understand.

As I pointed out above, it isn't easy even for Westerners to understand the term of "the unbearable lightness," either. People may argue that the character "轻," standing alone, may mean many things. However, we are not talking about "轻 (lightness)" alone, instead, we are talking about "生命中不可承受之轻 (the unbearable lightness of being)." In short, the context defines the meaning of each of the characters, lexical terms, in the book title. I don't see any proposal of a better Chinese book title for this work of Kundera's and I am glad that Chinese native readers can enjoy reading 《生命中不可承受之轻》 as well. If it is up to the opinions of the readers, I would say that it must be a proper translation of a book title, for otherwise, the publishers would have chosen another book title for their economical interests.

Do we have any other opinions in this forum other than the obvious absolute "Isvara" here? Prove me wrong, please. I would be glad to know how to improve my ability of understanding Chinese or what is essential in translation.

Have a nice weekend!

[标题已经过网站人员或版主的修改 2009-06-07 04:57 GMT]


 
Katrin Koehler (X)
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Slightly off-topic Jun 7, 2009

lai an wrote:

《生命无法承受之轻》怎么样
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I91at-YcBgk
The Unbearable Lightness of Being 布拉格之戀 - 蘇軍入侵布拉格

http://www.blinkx.com/video/romania-city-of-timisoara-a-paradise-for-italian-investors/ygMfUfXR6BRziVLAf9CRzQ
A dramatic boom in the real estate market has transformed Timisoara ...


Hi, lai an, your contribution is somehow off-topic, though the links are interesting in another context, anyhow. At least, it proves that the theme of this work of Kundera's is not about "恋" at all. For a better understanding of the theme of the work, it is better to know something about Czech (or Czechoslovakian) history.

The setting of the work rests on the after war East Europe. Czechoslovakia was the only one country which elected the Czechoslovakian Communist Party to power after the WWII while the other ones were forced to accept the communist governments set upon them. However, the liberalization course of the Czechoslovakian Communist Party under Antonín Novotný (a Czech) and Alexander Dubček (a Slovak) was not received well by the Soviets and it happened then in the year of 1968 that thousands of the Warsaw Pact troops invaded Czechoslovakia to reverse the democratization of the Czechoslovakian Communist Party. Milan Kundera was among those writers who sympathized with radical socialists in supporting the reforms undertaken by Novotný and Dubček. As a consequence of the smash in August, 1968, he had to flee. Kundera's work is never about love affairs.

The book title bears a "distancing effect" to alienate readers from the familiar, so that they can read consciously critical.

As to your proposal, the title 《生命无法承受之轻》 contains the character "轻" as well and that is exactly the issue hear. I am of the opinion that the "lightness" has to be translated this way for it isn't something which is "轻松 (easiness; something to be taken lightly)" at all. The unanimous opinion in this forum seems to be otherwise and would take 《布拉格之恋》 for a better book title for this work of Kundera's. You see, both of you and me are not supposed to be good judges of Chinese writing styles, for we are no native speakers. But it seems to me that you've catched my point. The alienation effect of the book title is essential to this work. A book title such as 《布拉格之恋 (Love in/of/for Prag)》 can never take over this effect, because such a flat book title would have restricted the reader's imagination, interpretation or whatever the author Milan Kundera intends to incite, solicit or arouse.

Though we are non-natives in Chinese, we can still sense the elegance or proper styles of translations into Chinese, even if we are not able to do the same good jobs. For instance, we would take the title of Marcel Proust's work, In Search of Lost Time, for elegantly translated into Chinese as 《追忆逝水年华》. However, I would wonder that more copies of Proust's work are sold and read in China than Kundera's The Unbearable Lightness of Being, for there are not many people nowadays who have the patience to read Proust. Anyway, I am not surprised at all that commercial translators take literary translations differently than those who put more effort in the opposite direction of making money.

So far I read from somewhere, Kundera collaborated with his French and English translators. The French version is almost the same work as his original, because he has been in exile in France since the end of 60s and his French is superb, qualified to be a French writer. Like the German writer Günter Grass, he welcome translators who ask him for help in translating his works and, of course, he selects only those translators who can communicate with him properly in French or Czech. The later Chinese translator of his Unbearable might probably have enjoyed his help, too. However, Kundera was outraged by the screen adaptation of this work by Hollywood and has decided not to let any one of his novels adapted to commercial movies.

BTW, as off-topic, I noticed your doubt about the winner of last translation contest from Chinese to German. Though the winner doesn't have a working language pair from Chinese to German, his translation is literary elegant. We never know how he translated so smoothly and elegantly in the eyes of German native speakers from a language he is supposed not to have learned, but his translation is a very, very good one. The ones on the second and the third places are not bad, either. But a native would suspect that the translators must be non-natives. Similarly, our translations, no matter how hard we try, would bear a trace of non-natives of Chinese language. For this reasn, I work with a Chinese editor at a publishing house in Shanghai when I have to translate from German into Chinese and I consult her when I don't understand a passage in Chinese at times when I am translating from Chinese into German. Do you work in this way? Anyway, I admire your Chinese.


[Edited at 2009-06-07 15:29 GMT]


 
Zhoudan
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许均与韩少功有关《生命中不能承受之轻》的对话 Jun 7, 2009

http://www.guji.com.cn/books/bkview.asp?bkid=39964&cid=70507

 
wherestip
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字面翻 Jun 7, 2009



This is well said ...

"但翻译活动非常复杂,字面的机械忠实,有时反而会导致精神的扭曲,可谓形似神散。"


 
Katrin Koehler (X)
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Thank you for the insightful dialog... Jun 7, 2009



Zhoudan,

Thank you for the insightful dialog between the two translators of Kundera's The Unbearable Lightness of Being and/or l'Insoutenable légèreté de l'être. 韩少功 is the one who translated Kundera's work from English into Chinese as 《生命中不能承受之轻》, which is also published without censorship in Taiwan as 《生命中不可承受之轻》, while 许钧 is the one who translated the same work from French into Chinese as 《不能承受的生命之轻》 some 20 years later.

It is obvious that both translators do not find anything wrong with "轻." Instead, they are talking about the translation of "being" or "être" into Chinese. The later translator accepts the way how the former treats "being." Both of them make the trade-off and translate the term to "生命" because of the subjective "being" is not to be interpreted as "existence" or "living," both of them argue. They admit that "being" is ontological term and that translating it into Chinese as "生命 (life)" is a kind of trade-off when we translated from a totally different cultural understanding into Chinese.

I admire these two translators who go into depth of the art of translation, instead of criticizing each other. The later admits that his translation is going to based on the former's version and do some refinements, in the belief of "后译转精 (later translation turns out to be better)," though it isn't always the case.

傅雷是个很有成就的翻译家,在给友人谈翻译的信中,他特别强调语言与文化的差异给翻译造成的障碍,并指出在翻译中,要根据目的语文化和读者的审美习惯进行调整。如果说翻译中有些客观障碍难以克服,可有时,障碍并不存在,译者完全可以根据原作怎么说跟着怎么说,但有的译者个性比较强,在翻译中比较注重自己的语言创造和发挥。


This passage explains why it is necessary to adjust a translation to fit into the cultrual circumstances of the target language from time to time. However, it isn't always advisable to rephrase every expressions when there are no barriers of understanding at all. In this sense, I would say "生命之轻" is understandable, no barrier at all. That's why both translators stick to "轻." However, the former translator catches the ontological sense of "being" and put it into Chinese as "生命中...之轻." As we know, "être" can be understood ontologically both as "ser" and "estar." In order to grasp the double meaning of "being," 韩少功 resorts to the postposition "中." His translation for the book title is better than 许钧's. His "生命中不能承受之轻" is actually "在生命中教人承受不了之轻" which is, of course, not "轻松" at all! Maybe this is why some reader has an opinion like this link http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/92275950.html shows.

As to the faithfulness of a translation, we read in the dialog between the two translators something interesting: Sometimes, a translator cannot do anything about the faithfulness of the translation when he has to know "轻重" and stay "politically correct" in a biased sense. That is, translations can be easily manipulated, by truncating the text or inserting some comments to direct the interpretation, for instance. It isn't easy at all to perceive manipulation when there is a censorship, as the two translators point out.

Many thanks again, Zhoudan!

- Katrin
P.S. Are you in Shanghai? If so, we can meet sometime. I need some good Chinese editors and, since you find out this insightful dialog, I believe that you are one of those whom I am looking for.


 
ysun
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Bluff Jun 7, 2009

Katrin Koehler wrote:

Or, maybe, we can quote something like http://cy.5156edu.com/html4/475.html refered to by ysun to bluff our clients and get our pay? I say "bluff," because if we take a closer look at the explanation of the term "不知轻重," we find a funny example quoted by the author: "例子:婆子们~,说是这两日有些病,恐不能就好,到这里问大夫。(清‧曹雪芹《红楼梦》第一0九回)"

Katrin,

I don’t see anything “funny” in this example. It seems to me that you still don’t understand what "不知轻重" means. Could you please let me know your understating of “不知轻重" in the “funny example”, i.e., “婆子们不知轻重, 说是这两日有些病,恐不能就好,到这里问大夫。(清•曹雪芹《红楼梦》第一0九回)"?

I posted the link just to let you know that your understating of "不知轻重" is incorrect. How would it have any connection to “to bluff our clients and get our pay”? I would appreciate it if you could make an explanation.

For a Chinese learner (as you put it yourself) like you, it’s natural to misunderstand something in the language or even make mistakes. Don’t feel embarrassed. I hope you will not feel offended by my comment.

[Edited at 2009-06-08 12:15 GMT]


 
jyuan_us
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Fallacy Jun 7, 2009

Katrin Koehler wrote:

If it is up to the opinions of the readers, I would say that it must be a proper translation of a book title, for otherwise, the publishers would have chosen another book title for their economical interests.


[标题已经过网站人员或版主的修改 2009-06-07 04:57 GMT]


There is a logical fallacy in your argument like this, because your conclusion is not supported by your reasoning.


 
jyuan_us
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英文書名不難理解啊﹐你怎麼說它難理解﹖ Jun 7, 2009

Katrin Koehler wrote:

As I pointed out above, it isn't easy even for Westerners to understand the term of "the unbearable lightness," either. People may argue that the character "轻," standing alone, may mean many things. However, we are not talking about "轻 (lightness)" alone, instead, we are talking about "生命中不可承受之轻 (the unbearable lightness of being)."

[标题已经过网站人员或版主的修改 2009-06-07 04:57 GMT]



I think you didn't get the point. the problem doesn't lie with either "unbearable" or "unbearable lightness" as a whole. Instead, it lies with the translation of "lightness".


You said "it isn't easy even for Westerners to understand the term of "the unbearable lightness". As a non-Westerner, I don't find it hard at all to understand the English phrase "unbearable lightness". It is just a 矛盾修飾法。Nothing special. So I guess any native English individual with an average educational level wouldn't find it hard to understand. 退一步講﹐假設你說的西方人也很難理解"the unbearable lightness," 這也不能成為把中文書名翻譯得不知所云的理由。

[Edited at 2009-06-07 18:04 GMT]


 
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